[thomas c]

was watching this on viewgraph. i wondered if anyone would bid 1nt on the north hand (2 nt) i think
many woud overcall 1nt on the south hand. of course some will say this is resulting cause it makes 3n from
north or south but im really just curious about 1nt versus the 4 card spades to the jack.

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[aguahombre]

Opposite a partner who would perpetrate a T/O double with the South hand, I have no idea what advance should be made by North. Opposite my partner, 2S feels about right.

[GHS_K_Chow]

I would bid 1NT over a minor with Qx or Jxx.
It's an obvious bid for me. It shows the shape, the stopper (Qxx), and the point range. Whether or not you play systems on, you should be able to find 3N.

Systems on: stayman, 3N
Systems off: cuebid, 3N.

[thomas c]

when u know where most of the points are the play becomes a lot easier. on this hand you maybe have a double stopper with the aj of diamonds. i would bid 1nt in preference to bidding the 4 spades to the jack. with my regular parter we play that shows 8 to 10 pts. but im thinking maybe this hand is worth a 2nt bid. btw is partner has an unbalanced hand he will bid it. anyhow im trying to find out what agreements people are playing especially as far as points are concerned (if u bid nt)

[aguahombre]

It is a natural phenomenon that problems like this go away, or don't occur at all, if we change our mindset just a wee bit.

Ask ourselves what to do with a NT opener when righty opens 1m. Then ask ourselves what we would do with the other hand if partner showed a NT opener. Then all the guesswork about what this North should have done on this occasion evaporate.

Create a bunch of hands where pard actually has a takeout double, and then I would guess that a 2S advance would be a good idea, and a 1NT advance might work but would be considered overthinking or masterminding.

[Hanoi5]

I don't quite like South's pass over 2♠. Playing teams it's quite normal to bid 2♠ with north's hand. I think I prefer 1NT instead of double with South's.

[Quantumcat]

North should bid 2♦ - four-four in the majors, or a good hand (~9+ HCP) that is not sure where to play. 2♠ should be saved for the medium hand (~9-11 HCP) that is pretty sure it wants to play in spades (i.e. five spades, or four spades and two or fewer hearts).

South will then bid 2♥, and North will bid 2♠, showing the good hand that is not sure where to play, with four spades. South then knows game is on, and perhaps bids 3♦, over which North bids 3NT. If North did not have a diamond stopper, he could bid 3♥ over 3♦ (showing three) and if South had five he could raise to 4♥. If South did not have five hearts he will just have to bid 3NT and hope diamonds break, or that the partnership has a combined stopper.

Personally, I would bid 1NT over a 1-opener with a balanced 16-18 HCP whether or not I have a stopper, and partner has a responsibility to check before bidding 3NT if he doesn't have a stopper himself. There is lots of room between 1NT and 3NT for that

[Rossoneri]

Wouldn't think of doubling with South's hand, I would bid 1NT instead.

N's bid of 2♠ after the double looks reasonable.

[Codo]

1. I would bid 1 NT with the south hand but, it is not too close.
2. I do not know, what 2 Spade after the double shows for you, the styles are very different. But it surely is not passable if you hold the south hand (2 ♠ would show 8-10 for me, but I know enough people who play it even stronger. If you have no rebid now for a hand like yours- you better had not doubled but bid 1 NT.
3. 1 NT is a good alternative to 2 ♠ for North. This hand screams NT- but surely 2 ♠ is not wrong either. Give South Kxxx,KQxx,x,KQxx or another typical take out double and I would prefer to play in spades.

[billw55]

Hanoi5, on 2012-October-07, 12:38, said:

I don't quite like South's pass over 2♠.

I will go further to say that south's failure to bid again is a clear blunder. Apparently south is one of those players who need a granite solid double stopper to bid NT after opponents bid a suit, and view Qxx as the same as xx.

North could reasonably bid NT instead of ♠, but there is nothing wrong with the call he chose, and this does not excuse south's timidity.

[dwar0123]

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Is this an obvious takeout double or a 1nt bid?

[Codo]

Your example looks like a clear double for me.
Opponents suit is 5+ cards compared to 3+ cards.
You have one card less in their suit.
You have 4 cards in all unbid majors, at least three cards in each unbid suit.

[barmar]

The OP said this was seen on Vugraph. Who makes it to a vugraph event and bids like South? Double vs 1NT in the first round is a judgement call, but passing 2♠ seems like a beginner error.

[MrAce]

To me everyhand that is in my 1 NT overcall range and has a stopper in their suit, regardless of how flawed my stopper is, should start with 1NT that includes the hands where my shape is also good for T/O dbl.

Basically when i start with a take out dbl, i can not have a balanced 1NT hand + a stopper in their suit. This made my life so easy so many times that i can live with playing from wrongside or playing wrong partscore now and then.

[dwar0123]

MrAce, on 2012-October-08, 22:29, said:

To me everyhand that is in my 1 NT overcall range and has a stopper in their suit, regardless of how flawed my stopper is, should start with 1NT that includes the hands where my shape is also good for T/O dbl.

Basically when i start with a take out dbl, i can not have a balanced 1NT hand + a stopper in their suit. This made my life so easy so many times that i can live with playing from wrongside or playing wrong partscore now and then.

Oh conflicting opinions, now I must have more input!

[aguahombre]

dwar0123, on 2012-October-09, 00:16, said:

Oh conflicting opinions, now I must have more input!

O.K. here is mine: The hand you postulated in post #11 is a takeout double of 1♥. Add a heart in place of a minor-suit x, and it is a NT overcall. The strength of your spade suit in that example is just a red herring. The points could be anywhere.

[Zelandakh]

On dwar's hand my clear first choice would be X. That is not to say that 1NT (or 1♠ for that matter) is wrong, it is just not my style. On the OP hand, I do prefer 1NT though. These situations do not appear at all similar for the reasons Roland already gave.

[dwar0123]

Thanks, 3-1 for double. In the actual hand I bid nt and lho bid 2♥ passed back to me. I doubled and it got passed out. Down 1 for a zero when we make 3 spades.

Partner had 4 spades but thought they were in a 5-2 fit, figuring I had better hearts and thought we could set them two.

[aguahombre]

Interesting, Dwar. I assumed you created that hand to counter Timo's contention about his NT overcalls and that the question was rhetorical. If it were given as an actual poll, I strongly suspect a margin much greater than 3-1 for the double.