[mike777]

thanks for taking the time to respond.

so can we see the full deal, please?

[PhilKing]

Before the answer is given, I would like to bet that Two Spades went for a large penalty.

[Codo]

I bet that 2 ♠ made and was not bid...

[Hanoi5]

Partner held:


♠Kxx
♥AJxx
♦Kxx
♣QJx

but she took a lot of time before passing 1♥ and probably a little after 2♥. Isn't pass a LA? I thought it might be but apparently not? I think it is for beginners though.

[mike777]

ok so it looks like you can make 2 or 3 spades but you might get 100 or 200 or more on defense.

[aguahombre]

Hanoi5, on 2012-October-07, 16:21, said:

Partner held:


♠Kxx
♥AJxx
♦Kxx
♣QJx

but she took a lot of time before passing 1♥ and probably a little after 2♥. Isn't pass a LA? I thought it might be but apparently not? I think it is for beginners though.

What is for beginners? The pass? Partner's hesitations are for beginners. The 3rd spade is nice for the bidders to pretty much break even with the passer.

[MrAce]

There are also those of us who would bid 2♠ in this auction with

QJxxx
xx
xxx
Jxx

i am one of them.

[mike777]

MrAce, on 2012-October-08, 20:46, said:

There are also those of us who would bid 2♠ in this auction with

QJxxx
xx
xxx
Jxx

i am one of them.

ok again why, I mean what are the probabilities here?

I mean in the examples so far 2h goes down and down alot if we make 2s.

I understand you are worried about losing 6-7 imps but why?

again I assume pard will bid over 1h or prebalance over 2h ala bergen.

[MrAce]

mike777, on 2012-October-08, 20:53, said:

ok again why, I mean what are the probabilities here?

1-Just do some simple math (addition or substraction) 40 is the magic number to start with. In that type of auction opponents usually has less than 24 since they didn't even make any move towards game. That leaves your pd with at least opener values and a hand which can not act. He knew he can rely on us if 2♥ comes to us in balabcing seat.

2-You should try to use the advantage of declaring over defending on anytime at low levels especially at 1 or 2 levels. Especially when your suit can dominate theirs at same level.

3-Put yourself in the chair of 2♥ bidder, how often are you happy when 2♥ is passed out and how often when they balance with 2♠. As others said you can go for a phone number now and then but this type of non stop punching,kicking, elbowing, poking, annoying, disturbing, harresing wears down even the best opponents. Even when you are wrong for bidding, it doesnt write on your forehead that you are wrong. We often see a bad or agressive lead may lead opponents to do something even worse.

Or you can always bid the hand you have as if you will be interogated after each match by FBI and will have to answer questions (for example HOG and a few more comes to my mind who bids like that) and never have anything to fear postmortem. Thinking you have done nothing wrong but lost another match for reasons not known to yourself.

I don't know if you watch football (soccer), if you do you will often see a player making a an empty run towards the player who has the ball. The player who runs knows he can never get the ball from this guys because he is way too far, but by making this run he reduces the time and space available for the the guy with the ball. Sometimes he causes panic and ends up with an unexpected position gain or simply recovering the ball. Just don't watch the game when they have the ball, good players, even the bad ones will use it much better when uncontested.

You are basically taking the advantege of

1-Knowing they don't have too much because they stayed in 2♥
2-Knowing that you have the spades and you dont have to bid 1 level higher than them
3-Knowing even the best players ever are way too sissy and cautious when it comes to double 2M contracts.
4-And hoping that pd is aware you are bidding for both of you, not your hand, or you would do it earlier, not in pass out seat.

Of course i am aware the art of doing this, is not as easy as writing it, those who knows when and when not are very good players. Others either over do it ( probably me ) , or not do at all

[lalldonn]

I think pass is definitely a logical alternative and unlike most I thought this was a close decision. Neither side is at all guaranteed a fit, and my partners would have doubled on lots of balanced 12-13 point hands over 1♥ with 3 spades but not with 1 or 2 spades. I would have doubled easily on partner's actual hand.

[MrAce]

lalldonn, on 2012-October-09, 11:31, said:

I think pass is definitely a logical alternative and unlike most I thought this was a close decision. Neither side is at all guaranteed a fit, and my partners would have doubled on lots of balanced 12-13 point hands over 1♥ with 3 spades but not with 1 or 2 spades. I would have doubled easily on partner's actual hand.

White vs Red, i don't think we need to know any of these things such as if we have a fit or if they are actually playing a 6-1 ♥ fit or not. We are not bidding game or slam either. We are just bidding 2♠ over 2♥ in pass out seat. We have spades, we have the vuln on our side. If we end up playing a 5-1 fit to see they had 6-1 fit, then let be it.


I mean, if not with this hand, i dunno which hand we will balance 2♥ at these colors holding 5 spades ?

[lalldonn]

MrAce, on 2012-October-09, 14:57, said:

White vs Red, i don't think we need to know any of these things such as if we have a fit or if they are actually playing a 6-1 ♥ fit or not. We are not bidding game or slam either. We are just bidding 2♠ over 2♥ in pass out seat. We have spades, we have the vuln on our side. If we end up playing a 5-1 fit to see they had 6-1 fit, then let be it.


I mean, if not with this hand, i dunno which hand we will balance 2♥ at these colors holding 5 spades ?

W/R isn't "vuln on our side" in a partscore battle, W/W is, since if we save them from going down then it is more costly when they are vul. This is not the same situation as saving over a game.

I'm not sure I understand the basis of your final comment. Who says there absolutely must be some group of hands with 5 spades that must bid on this auction? What if there isn't?

Btw I do bid 2♠ but I consider it awfully close. I would not without the T9. Your example of QJxxx xx xxx Jxx I assumed at the time was a joke or some type of humor but I'm starting to think it's not?

[MrAce]

lalldonn, on 2012-October-09, 15:30, said:

W/R isn't "vuln on our side" in a partscore battle, W/W is, since if we save them from going down then it was more costly. This is not the same situation as saving over a game.

I'm not sure I understand the basis of your final comment. Who says there absolutely must be some group of hands with 5 spades that must bid on this auction? What if there isn't?

Btw I do bid 2♠ but I consider it awfully close. I would not without the T9. Your example of QJxxx xx xxx Jxx I assumed at the time was a joke or some type of humor but I'm starting to think it's not?

No i wasnt joking, in fact there are some other auctions that i would bid 2♠ without even looking at any of my 13 cards in pass out seat.

To answer your first question, again, No, i don't believe there is any hand which should not bid 2♠ over 2♥ with 5 card spades in pass out seat and white. Call me crazy or whatever you wanted to call but didn't just to be polite