[FrancesHinden]

 Trinidad, on 2012-October-07, 13:49, said:

There may be some players who play 1430 kickback. I haven't met them yet, but that probably says more about me than anything else. Fact is that technically 1430 RKCB is marginally better than 0314 RKCB. 1430 kickback is not technically better than 0314 kickback, not even marginally. So, there is no reason to confuse kickback with a "new and improved" variation.Rik

 PhilKing, on 2012-October-07, 14:53, said:

I play it, and my partner plays it as well.

So do I. We play 1430 RKCB so we thought it obvious we should play the same after Kickback. I'm not at all convinced of the merits of 1430 compared to 0314 nor alternatively of the demerits, but I am convinced that playing them different ways round depending on the ace asking bid is a bad idea.

[FrancesHinden]

 Trinidad, on 2012-October-07, 12:17, said:

Thanks for posting your agreements. But can you tell me how


is fundamentally different from:

With spades trumps
4NT asks for aces if all the following are true:
- the auction is completely uncontested [this is obviously not the optimal rule but it works]
- either spades have been explicitly agreed as trumps, or there is no room to agree spades as trumps so 4NT would not be natural
- 4NT could not possible be natural [so, for example, 1S-2C-2S-4NT probably should be RKCB, because 2NT is forcing, but it isn't because 4NT could be natural]

?

Rik

It's not fundamentally different (in fact that's a virtual copy from our rules on when 4NT is keycard for spades, except there are additional competitive auctions when 4NT is keycard with either major trumps).
I'm not sure where I ever suggested they should be different?

The main difference is that playing RKCB it is possible to have auctions, with hearts trumps, where you aren't totally certain if 4S would be a cue bid or an attempt to play there but if you want to ask for aces it doesn't matter; you just don't do it and use keycard instead. With 4S as the ace-asking bid you have to be absolutely certain when 4S is non-forcing, you aren't allowed uncertainty.

p.s. also your comparative example is not ideal. 1H-1S-3H-3S/4S are both possible auctions. I can't imagine a hand that would bid 1S-2C-2S-4NT whatever 4NT meant.

[FrancesHinden]

 Trinidad, on 2012-October-07, 02:00, said:

In all seriousness, this is simply not true. There is one simple rule and Justin has given it.

In cases like the one in the OP, the real question is not: "Is 4♠ kickback?". The real question is the opposite: "Is 4♠ natural?". If you are not on the same wavelength with partner, you will have an accident. Whether the misunderstanding about 4♠ is kickback vs natural or cuebid vs natural or "Inverted Turbo Declarative Interrogative" vs natural is completely irrelevant. Everybody will have the same accident.

That's not quite true. If you want to bid 4S naturally and aren't certain if it's to play or agrees partner's suit then I agree you have exactly that problem whatever your artificial meaning for 4S.
But it you want to ask for aces, you don't have to guess whether 4S is natural or not, because 4NT asks for aces. (You have to guess if 4NT is natural or not, but that is usually an easier problem.) Playing Kickback you can't avoid the problem because you simply don't know how to ask for aces with certainty.

[aguahombre]

 PhilKing, on 2012-October-07, 14:53, said:

I play it, and my partner plays it as well.

Or better?

[PhilKing]

 Trinidad, on 2012-October-07, 13:49, said:

Fact is that technically 1430 RKCB is marginally better than 0314 RKCB. 1430 kickback is not technically better than 0314 kickback, not even marginally.
Rik

Really? I tend to hold 1 key card more often than zero even when I play kickback ...

[aguahombre]

 PhilKing, on 2012-October-07, 16:00, said:

Really? I tend to hold 1 key card more often than zero even when I play kickback ...

However, you still have the extra step whether you hold zero or one...and with two you still don't need the extra step. So, 1430 or 0314 becomes simply a matter of which one you can remember that you play.

[PhilKing]

 aguahombre, on 2012-October-07, 16:09, said:

However, you still have the extra step whether you hold zero or one...and with two you still don't need the extra step. So, 1430 or 0314 becomes simply a matter of which one you can remember that you play.

The point is (and it's one known to anyone who switched to 1430 whilst awake) that zero is a) less common and b) less relevant. Kickback has gained us at least one extra step, but it is still the 1 key card response that benefits more than the zero.

But go with the old memory thing if that floats your boat.

[Zelandakh]

 Trinidad, on 2012-October-07, 13:49, said:

There may be some players who play 1430 kickback. I haven't met them yet, but that probably says more about me than anything else. Fact is that technically 1430 RKCB is marginally better than 0314 RKCB. 1430 kickback is not technically better than 0314 kickback, not even marginally. So, there is no reason to confuse kickback with a "new and improved" variation.

I play 1430 Kickback too. What is more, you are wrong about it not being advantageous. Say hearts agreed and we bid 4♠ asking for key cards. The response is 4NT showing 1 or 4. Now 5♣ is the trump queen ask but we also have 5♦ available as the king ask. Playing 3041 the response would be 5♣, so 5♦ is the queen ask and 5♠ the king ask, a nett loss of 2 steps for this not uncommon auction.

[dboxley]

It's not kickback unless it's obvious. This time it's not obvious.

[fromageGB]

 dboxley, on 2012-October-08, 16:29, said:

It's not kickback unless it's obvious. This time it's not obvious.

I don't think that is a sufficient rule. Many the time I have thought something was obvious, but my partner didn't.

[fromageGB]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-October-08, 01:58, said:

I play 1430 Kickback too. What is more, you are wrong about it not being advantageous. Say hearts agreed and we bid 4♠ asking for key cards. The response is 4NT showing 1 or 4. Now 5♣ is the trump queen ask but we also have 5♦ available as the king ask...

Good point if the additional room helps. I suppose if partner has no kings he bids 5♥, so you can afford to ask for kings missing an ace and a king, which you wouldn't normally (other things being equal). Is this what you would do?

[Zelandakh]

Yes, bidding the trump suit at the lowest level shows no side kings after a king ask.

[Zelandakh]

double-post, sorry

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 fromageGB, on 2012-October-09, 03:50, said:

Good point if the additional room helps. I suppose if partner has no kings he bids 5♥, so you can afford to ask for kings missing an ace and a king, which you wouldn't normally (other things being equal). Is this what you would do?

Interesting point, but I don't think so.
Once you ask for Kings, regardless of level, it guarantees ALL key cards AND the trump Q ( or no concern about her highness due to extra trump length ).

That said, I don't see a downside to asking for a missing a King since no answer should be at the 7-level.

[mycroft]

Some play, especially at MPs, that the king ask could be off a KC, as 6NT scores better than 6M.

Having said that, why, if you play that the king ask guarantees 5+Q, would you not use the 7 level? Unless you're playing a full relay system, responder to KC could have a side solid 6+card suit, which is easily going to be better than whatever K we're missing for making 13 tricks. 7m could be "choice of grands", too, depending on how you want to play it.

I always tell people that when they go for kings, they let partner back in to the judgement - it's not a pure captaincy auction any more. That seems to be pretty standard.

[Zelandakh]

 mycroft, on 2012-October-09, 11:36, said:

I always tell people that when they go for kings, they let partner back in to the judgement - it's not a pure captaincy auction any more. That seems to be pretty standard.

This is true but in this particular case there is an "out". For example you could play

... - 4♠ - 4NT - 5♦
===================
5♥ = no side king
5♠ = ♠K
5NT = ♦K, no ♠K
6♣ = ♣K only
6♦ = no king but something extra(1)
6♥ = no king but something extra(2)
6♠ = "I want to bid grand, how are the key cards?"
6NT = all 3 side kings

The 6♠ response means you could still settle in 6NT.

This area, looking for side cards with a key card missing, is one I plan to look at in more detail some day since it is not at all uncommon that it causes a problem, especially at MP scoring.