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Kickback or natural

#1 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 12:57



Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback, but have not discussed this situation.

Would you bid as though 4♠ was intended as kickback?

What do you think the best agreement should be for this auction in context of a partnership where you have agreed to try kickback?

Are there any meta-rules about kickback that you have in your partnerships which would have clarified this situation?
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#2 User is offline   trevahound 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 13:03

 CSGibson, on 2012-October-04, 12:57, said:



Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback, but have not discussed this situation.

Would you bid as though 4♠ was intended as kickback?

What do you think the best agreement should be for this auction in context of a partnership where you have agreed to try kickback?

Are there any meta-rules about kickback that you have in your partnerships which would have clarified this situation?


Had the auction continued with doubler rebidding 4s and advancer bidding 4nt, that would be keycard ask, correct? How is this different? How else could responder set trumps and then ask? If advancer had a just spade moose, this wouldn't be a difficult problem to foresee, and advancer can't bid it this way. This is rule c for me (what else could partner have done earlier in the auction?).

But, just to torture myself I'm going to send this problem to my regular partners. :)

Brian Zaugg
"I suggest a chapter on "strongest dummy opposite my free bids." For example, someone might wonder how I once put this hand down as dummy in a spade contract: AQ10xxx void AKQxx KQ. Did I start with Michaels? Did I cuebid until partner was forced to pick one of my suits? No, I was just playing with Brian (6S made when the trump king dropped singleton)." David Wright
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#3 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 13:12

 trevahound, on 2012-October-04, 13:03, said:

Had the auction continued with doubler rebidding 4s and advancer bidding 4nt, that would be keycard ask, correct? How is this different? How else could responder set trumps and then ask? If advancer had a just spade moose, this wouldn't be a difficult problem to foresee, and advancer can't bid it this way. This is rule c for me (what else could partner have done earlier in the auction?).

But, just to torture myself I'm going to send this problem to my regular partners. :)

Brian Zaugg



Mostly I'd say that the argument for spades being spades, and 4N being keycard is that we don't need a natural 4N, and that being able to show a single-suited spade hand that is too good for 4S but not safe at the 5 level opposite a minimum take-out double is more important than being able to cue-bid spades in support of hearts.

Edit: Just to be clear, I am saying that is the argument, not necessarily endorsing the argument, though my natural inclination is to lean that way. I am interested in hearing what people have to say on this.

I guess that also begs the question: In a non-kickback partnership, is 4♠ a correction of strain, or a cue-bid?

If it is a correction of strain, then I can see a potential meta-agreement: when the standard auction would have shown a cue-bid, then its kickback; but when a standard auction would have shown a correction of strain, then that is also the agreement we have, and 4N becomes regular keycard.

This post has been edited by CSGibson: 2012-October-04, 13:31

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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 13:23

Whoa Gibson!!!
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#5 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 13:28

 han, on 2012-October-04, 13:23, said:

Whoa Gibson!!!


Hey Han, what's up.
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#6 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 13:51

It's natural dude, this is a standard way to bid a hand with, for exmaple, 4 spades and 5 clubs and a game force
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#7 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 13:53

Kickback does not replace natural auctions. For example, 1D X p 4H p 4S is natural not kickback since you can double with a hand that wants to double and bid spades. Kickback replaces cuebidding auctions, so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.
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#8 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 14:00

Quote

so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.


What is 4NT in such auctions ?
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#9 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 14:15

 bluecalm, on 2012-October-04, 14:00, said:

What is 4NT in such auctions ?



Assuming it would be a spade Q in support of hearts.
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#10 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 14:19

 JLOGIC, on 2012-October-04, 13:53, said:

Kickback does not replace natural auctions. For example, 1D X p 4H p 4S is natural not kickback since you can double with a hand that wants to double and bid spades. Kickback replaces cuebidding auctions, so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.



Thanks, that makes a lot of sense to me.
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#11 User is offline   trevahound 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 14:20

 JLOGIC, on 2012-October-04, 13:51, said:

It's natural dude, this is a standard way to bid a hand with, for exmaple, 4 spades and 5 clubs and a game force


Yeah, that makes the most sense, but I didn't think of it. How else could you show spades and clubs?
"I suggest a chapter on "strongest dummy opposite my free bids." For example, someone might wonder how I once put this hand down as dummy in a spade contract: AQ10xxx void AKQxx KQ. Did I start with Michaels? Did I cuebid until partner was forced to pick one of my suits? No, I was just playing with Brian (6S made when the trump king dropped singleton)." David Wright
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#12 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 14:35

Clearly natch. 4N should be RKC for hearts.

In a cramped auction, kickback rarely applies.
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#13 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-October-04, 14:42

My plan is to answer natural based on the thread title alone, then look at the hand.


...


Now that I have looked, I see I was right :)

I'm pretty sure I have never in my life answered this question as "kickback" even if I was playing it.
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#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-October-05, 04:29

A good basic starting rule for Kickback is that if it makes sense for a bid to be natural it is. It makes sense for 4♠ to be natural here.
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-October-05, 07:34

never mind
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#16 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-October-06, 03:36

 lalldonn, on 2012-October-04, 14:42, said:

My plan is to answer natural based on the thread title alone, then look at the hand.


...


Now that I have looked, I see I was right :)

I'm pretty sure I have never in my life answered this question as "kickback" even if I was playing it.


well said.

We play 4S as keycard when hearts are trumps, but we also have a very simple metarule: 4S is never kickback in a contested auction.
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#17 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2012-October-06, 05:12

 CSGibson, on 2012-October-04, 12:57, said:

Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback.

Why?
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#18 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-October-06, 06:54

I'm ready to see partner's hand ....
Don Stenmark
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-October-06, 10:01

If 4♠ is natural in this auction (3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♥ (P) 4♠ , and I am beginning to see why it should be.

Then 4N is KC in the same auction (3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♥ (P) 4n

and

(3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♠ (P) 5♥ a hand too good to bid 4♥ at the first turn?, if such a hand exists.
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#20 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-October-06, 12:00

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-06, 06:54, said:

I'm ready to see partner's hand ....



partner did not pull this auction on me, or at least partner passed over 4♥. The 4♠ continuation was born of a question in the post-mortem about what it should be.
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