[CSGibson]

---

Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback, but have not discussed this situation.

Would you bid as though 4♠ was intended as kickback?

What do you think the best agreement should be for this auction in context of a partnership where you have agreed to try kickback?

Are there any meta-rules about kickback that you have in your partnerships which would have clarified this situation?

[trevahound]

CSGibson, on 2012-October-04, 12:57, said:

---

Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback, but have not discussed this situation.

Would you bid as though 4♠ was intended as kickback?

What do you think the best agreement should be for this auction in context of a partnership where you have agreed to try kickback?

Are there any meta-rules about kickback that you have in your partnerships which would have clarified this situation?

Had the auction continued with doubler rebidding 4s and advancer bidding 4nt, that would be keycard ask, correct? How is this different? How else could responder set trumps and then ask? If advancer had a just spade moose, this wouldn't be a difficult problem to foresee, and advancer can't bid it this way. This is rule c for me (what else could partner have done earlier in the auction?).

But, just to torture myself I'm going to send this problem to my regular partners.

Brian Zaugg

[CSGibson]

trevahound, on 2012-October-04, 13:03, said:

Had the auction continued with doubler rebidding 4s and advancer bidding 4nt, that would be keycard ask, correct? How is this different? How else could responder set trumps and then ask? If advancer had a just spade moose, this wouldn't be a difficult problem to foresee, and advancer can't bid it this way. This is rule c for me (what else could partner have done earlier in the auction?).

But, just to torture myself I'm going to send this problem to my regular partners.

Brian Zaugg

Mostly I'd say that the argument for spades being spades, and 4N being keycard is that we don't need a natural 4N, and that being able to show a single-suited spade hand that is too good for 4S but not safe at the 5 level opposite a minimum take-out double is more important than being able to cue-bid spades in support of hearts.

Edit: Just to be clear, I am saying that is the argument, not necessarily endorsing the argument, though my natural inclination is to lean that way. I am interested in hearing what people have to say on this.

I guess that also begs the question: In a non-kickback partnership, is 4♠ a correction of strain, or a cue-bid?

If it is a correction of strain, then I can see a potential meta-agreement: when the standard auction would have shown a cue-bid, then its kickback; but when a standard auction would have shown a correction of strain, then that is also the agreement we have, and 4N becomes regular keycard.

This post has been edited by CSGibson: 2012-October-04, 13:31

[han]

Whoa Gibson!!!

[CSGibson]

han, on 2012-October-04, 13:23, said:

Whoa Gibson!!!

Hey Han, what's up.

[JLOGIC]

It's natural dude, this is a standard way to bid a hand with, for exmaple, 4 spades and 5 clubs and a game force

[JLOGIC]

Kickback does not replace natural auctions. For example, 1D X p 4H p 4S is natural not kickback since you can double with a hand that wants to double and bid spades. Kickback replaces cuebidding auctions, so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.

[bluecalm]

Quote

so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.

What is 4NT in such auctions ?

[CSGibson]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-04, 14:00, said:

What is 4NT in such auctions ?

Assuming it would be a spade Q in support of hearts.

[CSGibson]

JLOGIC, on 2012-October-04, 13:53, said:

Kickback does not replace natural auctions. For example, 1D X p 4H p 4S is natural not kickback since you can double with a hand that wants to double and bid spades. Kickback replaces cuebidding auctions, so if 4S would normally be a cuebid then it is kickback.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense to me.

[trevahound]

JLOGIC, on 2012-October-04, 13:51, said:

It's natural dude, this is a standard way to bid a hand with, for exmaple, 4 spades and 5 clubs and a game force

Yeah, that makes the most sense, but I didn't think of it. How else could you show spades and clubs?

[Phil]

Clearly natch. 4N should be RKC for hearts.

In a cramped auction, kickback rarely applies.

[lalldonn]

My plan is to answer natural based on the thread title alone, then look at the hand.


...


Now that I have looked, I see I was right

I'm pretty sure I have never in my life answered this question as "kickback" even if I was playing it.

[Zelandakh]

A good basic starting rule for Kickback is that if it makes sense for a bid to be natural it is. It makes sense for 4♠ to be natural here.

[jillybean]

never mind

[FrancesHinden]

lalldonn, on 2012-October-04, 14:42, said:

My plan is to answer natural based on the thread title alone, then look at the hand.


...


Now that I have looked, I see I was right

I'm pretty sure I have never in my life answered this question as "kickback" even if I was playing it.

well said.

We play 4S as keycard when hearts are trumps, but we also have a very simple metarule: 4S is never kickback in a contested auction.

[cherdano]

CSGibson, on 2012-October-04, 12:57, said:

Context: You are in a fairly new partnership with system notes, and you have decided to play kickback.

Why?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I'm ready to see partner's hand ....

[jillybean]

If 4♠ is natural in this auction (3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♥ (P) 4♠ , and I am beginning to see why it should be.

Then 4N is KC in the same auction (3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♥ (P) 4n

and

(3♦) X (P) 4♦ (P) 4♠ (P) 5♥ a hand too good to bid 4♥ at the first turn?, if such a hand exists.

[CSGibson]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-06, 06:54, said:

I'm ready to see partner's hand ....

partner did not pull this auction on me, or at least partner passed over 4♥. The 4♠ continuation was born of a question in the post-mortem about what it should be.