[MickyB]

Do you lead a trump, a heart, or a minor card? Has the double changed your decision? IMP scoring.

---

[sasioc]

I'm completely certain that I'd lead a heart without thinking about it nearly long enough just because of my heart holding.

It does feel like the double should at least make me think more about my options. One upside to not leading a heart is that when I don't lead shortage declarer will pin my shape very quickly (assuming he discovers that trumps are actually breaking) and trying something else may make this a little harder for him - of course, if I pick the wrong suit it could also burn a trick and partner may go wrong trying to give me a ruff. It's also possible that I'll manage to lead through dummy into partner in a useful way. I don't mind a minor suit lead, although I'm sure I wouldn't have really thought much about it at the table... I also have absolutely no idea if there is genuine merit to it or not.

[paulg]

sasioc, on 2012-October-02, 05:32, said:

I'm completely certain that I'd lead a heart without thinking about it nearly long enough just because of my heart holding.

I'd have given it a bit of thought and then led a heart. At least I don't have an eight-card suit.

[Fluffy]

don;t have enough imagination for doing something different

[lamford]

I would lead a trump. A heart is only likely to be right when they are 7-2-2-2 around the table. Give them something like AJ10x x KQ9x KQxx opposite xxxx Axx 10xx Axx and a heart is the only lead to let it through. Partner barely has a double there, but at least begin to break up endplays on him. If it says anything, his double says "don't lead a heart".

[MrAce]

♥ K is very tempting but I would lead trump. I have hearts and i am expecting pd to have values in minors, how will they make 4♠ if we reduce their ruffing power ?

[MickyB]

I received this lead problem through the grapevine, the doubler felt that it was obvious to try a minor suit here. The hand from my POV has already been discussed:

http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry668817

[PhilKing]

A subtle reason for opening Three Hearts on hands like this is that partner gets to make a lead directing bid of bid of Four Clubs, as Simon Cope did against me, so they led one against my Four Spade contract.

[lamford]

MickyB, on 2012-October-02, 04:00, said:

Do you lead a trump, a heart, or a minor card? Has the double changed your decision? IMP scoring.

---

Owing to a bug in the EBU Orange Book, the double is alertable in England if it asks for a lead other than a trump:
5 E 4 Calls above 3NT
Once the auction is above the level of 3NT, no calls are to be alerted except for:
(a) Artificial opening bids
(b) Lead-directing passes
( c) Doubles or redoubles that are lead-directing but ask for the lead of a suit other than the suit doubled (or redoubled)
The correction to this bug is to insert "of artificial bids" after doubles. I think that works.
I was therefore assuming from the lack of an alert that the agreement was that this double asked for a trump lead!

This post has been edited by lamford: 2012-October-05, 05:34

[PhilKing]

lamford, on 2012-October-05, 05:20, said:

Owing to a bug in the EBU Orange Book, the double is alertable in England ...

Mercifully, the Premier League is played under WBF alerting rules.

[lamford]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-05, 05:32, said:

Mercifully, the Premier League is played under WBF alerting rules.

Indeed, but I only learned it was from the Premier League in post #7.

[FrancesHinden]

lamford, on 2012-October-05, 05:20, said:

Owing to a bug in the EBU Orange Book, the double is alertable in England if it asks for a lead other than a trump:
5 E 4 Calls above 3NT
Once the auction is above the level of 3NT, no calls are to be alerted except for:
(a) Artificial opening bids
(b) Lead-directing passes
( c) Doubles or redoubles that are lead-directing but ask for the lead of a suit other than the suit doubled (or redoubled)
The correction to this bug is to insert "of artificial bids" after doubles. I think that works.
I was therefore assuming from the lack of an alert that the agreement was that this double asked for a trump lead!

I don't see any bug.
Double is alertable if it is lead-directing but asks for a different suit to be led. Unless the pair in this thread are playing very unusual methods, this double is not lead-directing and hence is not alertable (and if it is lead-directing, it seems entirely fair that it should be alertable).
One point of this rule is to make doubles of natural bids alertable if they are lead-directional e.g. a Lightner double. I discovered a couple of years ago that not everyone plays Lightner doubles, which affects whether you might wish to redouble or pull.

[lamford]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-October-07, 10:32, said:

I don't see any bug.
Double is alertable if it is lead-directing but asks for a different suit to be led.

So, if both defenders have bid suits, and the contract is above 3NT, then whether double says "lead my suit" or "lead your suit" it is alertable?

[gnasher]

lamford, on 2012-October-05, 05:20, said:

( c) Doubles or redoubles that are lead-directing but ask for the lead of a suit other than the suit doubled (or redoubled)
The correction to this bug is to insert "of artificial bids" after doubles. I think that works.

1♥-2NT [some kind of raise]
3♥-4♣ [length and strength in clubs]

If double (somewhat dangerously) asks for a diamond lead, we want it to be alertable.

[lamford]

gnasher, on 2012-October-08, 13:38, said:

1♥-2NT [some kind of raise]
3♥-4♣ [length and strength in clubs]

If double (somewhat dangerously) asks for a diamond lead, we want it to be alertable.

I agree that is desirable, but I have never met someone who plays that way! Under the current rules, an auction such as 2H (weak) - (Double) - 3C - (6NT) x (or Pass Pass x) would always be alertable if it carried any lead-directional element, as it can never ask for the lead of a no-trump.

[WellSpyder]

lamford, on 2012-October-09, 08:47, said:

Under the current rules, an auction such as 2H (weak) - (Double) - 3C - (6NT) x (or Pass Pass x) would always be alertable if it carried any lead-directional element, as it can never ask for the lead of a no-trump.

I would lead a non-trump on this auction whatever I thought partner's double meant!

[FrancesHinden]

lamford, on 2012-October-09, 08:47, said:

I agree that is desirable, but I have never met someone who plays that way! Under the current rules, an auction such as 2H (weak) - (Double) - 3C - (6NT) x (or Pass Pass x) would always be alertable if it carried any lead-directional element, as it can never ask for the lead of a no-trump.

True. Lead-directional doubles are alertable (unless it's a double of the suit bid), non-lead-directional doubles aren't.
I've certainly come across people who play

1H P 4C (splinter) dbl as asking for a heart lead

and, for example, I play
1H - 1S
4C - dbl as asking for a diamond lead

and there are definitely pairs who have very different ideas to mine about on which auctions double is lightner and on which auctions is just says the contract is going off

[FrancesHinden]

lamford, on 2012-October-09, 08:47, said:

Under the current rules, an auction such as 2H (weak) - (Double) - 3C - (6NT) x (or Pass Pass x) would always be alertable if it carried any lead-directional element, as it can never ask for the lead of a no-trump.

Yes. If your 6NT bid got doubled on the way out wouldn't you like to know if the opponents have an agreement about any lead-directional element to the double? (Possibly more relevant if 6 suit got doubled, but the principle is the same)

[lamford]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-October-09, 15:50, said:

I've certainly come across people who play

1H P 4C (splinter) dbl as asking for a heart lead

I must say that I have never encountered this. I have come across people playing it as asking for one of
a) a diamond lead
b) a pointed suit lead
c) a non-club lead
d) a club lead
And I think that people generally know to alert the first three, but not the last, and the rule works fine here. I would guess that virtually nobody knows the rules when the (likely) final contract is doubled - even eminent TDs looking at the Orange Book offered different opinions on another thread.