[MickyB]

DA lead. You are playing combined IMPs/BAM so the overtrick is of non-trivial value if both tables make slam. If you cash HA at T2, RHO follows with the ten.

---

[MickyB]

A possible trick 3:

Spoiler

♣Q,x,x,T

[ceeb]

I don't know what IMP/MP scoring means, but maybe I don't need to know.

At trick 3, cash the dummy's other high trump. Assuming both follow or LHO shows out, run the ♣Q planning if it holds, to continue with the ♣J. The fact that the ♣10 appears on the first round doesn't change this. RHO presumably covers the ♣J. Now it is nearly 100% safe to play a ruffing finesse in ♠ for an overtrick.

[MickyB]

ceeb, on 2012-October-01, 21:07, said:

I don't know what IMP/MP scoring means, but maybe I don't need to know.

At trick 3, cash the dummy's other high trump. Assuming both follow or LHO shows out

It's 12-board matches, with 36 VPs awarded for IMPs and 24 awarded for BAM [2 VPs for gaining IMPs on a board, 1 VP for a flat board].

When you cash the second trump, RHO shows out.

[rhm]

If trumps are 2-2 the hand is easy. Basically you take the ruffing finesse in spades and if necessary you try for an overtrick by taking the club finesse.
Assuming trumps are 3-1 the hand is deceptively difficult.
I would be satisfied to make the contract.

T1: ♦ ruff
T2; ♥A
T3: ♥Q, assume RHO shows out.
T4: ♣Q dropping the ♣T.
T5: club to the ♣9

If LHO wins and returns a diamond I am down if LHO found the ♣ duck with doubleton ♣KT, because I will try to return to hand with the ♣A, to draw his trump.
On any other return I draw trumps and take the ruffing finesse in spades which will win on the bidding and play so far, since you have an entry to dummy in clubs.

If LHO follows low, I can draw trumps, take the spade ruffing finesse, because I have a club entry to dummy. I take 13 tricks.

If LHO has a singleton club read him for 2♠=3♥=7♦=1♣ and RHO to be 4♠=1♥=4♦=4♣.

If LHO ruffs and returns a spade take the ruffing finesse in spades.
IF he returns a diamond play a black suit show up squeeze against RHO.

Finally if LHO refuses to ruff:

Run trumps to reach this 4 card ending:

---

RHO must keep ♣Kx. If RHO has kept a diamond, spades are high and you make an overtrick.
If RHO has kept 2 clubs and 2 spades play ♣A, club to end-play him.
Maybe not best, but elegant.

Rainer Herrmann

[MickyB]

Interesting, Rainer. You initially posted a line very similar to mine, but you've now edited it to be more like Tony Forrester's

My line was -
T1: ruff
T2: HA, RHO dropping HT
T3: CQ-x-x-T - it felt like I was better placed if CQ lost to have not cashed the second trump but I think that was fuzzy logic

I then ran off all my trumps, and reached a similar end-position to Rainer's in the "decline to ruff" scenario:

---

Is there a technical advantage to taking [or not taking] the club finesse before cashing the last two trumps? Does our end-position have a name? I am terrible with squeeze terminology.

So, which line is better, continuing clubs or drawing trumps? I thought the latter, as it has slightly better chances of an overtrick.

This post has been edited by MickyB: 2012-October-02, 03:45

[MickyB]

BTW, RHO had KQJT of diamonds so probably thought he was being triple squeezed for 13! Sadly my four wasn't quite upto the job

[rhm]

MickyB, on 2012-October-02, 03:26, said:

Is there a technical advantage to taking [or not taking] the club finesse before cashing the last two trumps?

As far as I can see if you draw trumps before repeating the club finesse you are essentially down if LHO ducked the ♣K.
This is good play, but far easier with ♣KTx than with ♣KT

Quote

Does our end-position have a name? I am terrible with squeeze terminology.

The squeeze belongs to the large class of strip squeezes. You strip East out of his diamond exit cards and then end-play him.

Quote

So, which line is better, continuing clubs or drawing trumps? I thought the latter, as it has slightly better chances of an overtrick.

Your line looses when LHO ducked the ♣K from ♣KTx, but makes an overtrick whenever LHO has the ♠Q doubleton or singleton. A close choice at this form of scoring.

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

rhm, on 2012-October-02, 04:01, said:

As far as I can see if you draw trumps before repeating the club finesse you are essentially down if LHO ducked the ♣K.
This is good play, but far easier with ♣KTx than with ♣KT

Once West turns out to have three hearts, it becomes unlikely that he has ♣K10x, especially as he neither led a singleton spade nor underled his ♦A. Hence Mike might have played a second club after the second trump.

Regarding the question of how hard to try for the overtrick, it's worth noting that 7♦ is likely to be cheap. In this type of event one should normally assume that teammates have done the right thing, so I don't think you should take any risks for an overtrick.

[PhilKing]

East can put you to a guess by coming down to Qx of spades in the ending you came to.

After SJ to the ace and two rounds of clubs you do not have a sure line. You will know West was 3361 or 2371, but not which.

After the CQ held, the advantage of the second club after cashing two hearts, is that West will usually ruff (as Nicola did) and now the ending becomes automatic.

[rhm]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-02, 05:39, said:

East can put you to a guess by coming down to Qx of spades in the ending you came to.

After SJ to the ace and two rounds of clubs you do not have a sure line. You will know West was 3361 or 2371, but not which.

After the CQ held, the advantage of the second club after cashing two hearts, is that West will usually ruff (as Nicola did) and now the ending becomes automatic.

Would East let you play 6♥ white versus red with 5 cards in diamonds and a singleton heart after hearing his partner preempt of 3♦?

Rainer Herrmann

[PhilKing]

rhm, on 2012-October-02, 06:30, said:

Would East let you play 6♥ white versus red with 5 cards in diamonds and a singleton heart after hearing his partner preempt of 3♦?

Rainer Herrmann

I assume you are joking:

♠Qxx ♥T ♦KJxxx ♣Kxxx.

Why would you save on this auction? The hand that did NOT save was: Qxxx T KQJT Kxxx - not much difference really, except that on the actual hand the save is one trick cheaper. ♠Qxx is better for defence and worse for offence.

[MrAce]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-02, 06:37, said:

I assume you are joking:

♠Qxx ♥T ♦KJxxx ♣Kxxx.

Why would you save on this auction? The hand that did NOT save was: Qxxx T KQJT Kxxx - not much difference really, except that on the actual hand the save is one trick cheaper. ♠Qxx is better for defence and worse for offence.

Huh !

Tbh i assume you are the one who is joking.

The original hand (Qxxx T KQJT Kxxx) has at least a hope that they can score ♦A and either a spade or a club trick. Other hand (Qxx T KJxxx Kxxx) has to assume that they need to score both spade and a club trick in order to think sitting in defense is more profittable. Even when on extacy i wouldn't dream of it. Forget about the mp part, even in IMPS -1100 vs -1430 is a sweet gain.

Thinking that defensive aspects of these 2 hands are not much different is a surprise to me, since i think you are a very good player and first time i read something you wrote that sounds very odd to me.

[PhilKing]

MrAce, on 2012-October-02, 09:55, said:

Huh !

Tbh i assume you are the one who is joking.

The original hand (Qxxx T KQJT Kxxx) has at least a hope that they can score ♦A and either a spade or a club trick. Other hand (Qxx T KJxxx Kxxx) has to assume that they need to score both spade and a club trick in order to think sitting in defense is more profittable. Even when on extacy i wouldn't dream of it. Forget about the mp part, even in IMPS -1100 vs -1430 is a sweet gain.

Thinking that defensive aspects of these 2 hands are not much different is a surprise to me, since i think you are a very good player and first time i read something you wrote that sounds very odd to me.

The reason I don't like sacrificing is that even when it makes it's often not 1100 against 1430, it's 1100 versus 680 or 500 or even a ridiculous 300 (as Simpson/Price got on this hand, I believe). We just do not know teammates are likely to get to slam, in which case sacrificing produces a guaranteed loss. Take the actual hand - some pairs did not reach Six Hearts because not everyone found the "enterprising" Five Heart bid (although obviously Forrester was one). Yes, you can still reach slam if South double and North bids 5NT, but that was not happening.

I would not have bid Five Diamonds (Four Clubs has a weird appeal), so I may not have had the problem. But as bid, with a few bits and pieces I take my chances on defence. I don't accept that a fifth diamond necessarily reduces our defensive prospect - the diamond was never really cashing anyway, and holding Qxx of spades is better. I'm not saying we will beat slam more than half the time - probably under 40% I would guess, but passing is often our only chance.

It's irrelevant what I would do though. The point is how many Easts would sit with the 4441 hand and sac with the 5431 hand? Thee are plenty of people who would sacrifice with both or neither and relatively few, I would suggest, that would sacrifice with the second but not the first.