[bluecalm]

---

For what it's worth actual hand was played at matchpoints but I am interested in what you do at IMPs too.
I passed but didn't feel well about it. As it happens raising was winning action. I polled some friends and the opinions are split.
What do you think ? If you think the hand is too weak, what is minimum addition to it to make it 3!C. If you think it's 3!C how much lighter would you go ?

[ArtK78]

I would always pass this hand. I like where the opps are heading on this hand, and 2♣ seems high enough to me.

[655321]

I would raise (just), but move an honor into the club suit and I would happily raise. If the vulnerability really is w/w then bidding is more attractive (especially at MP). When I have talked about this sort of hand with friends I find they often pass here, so maybe bidding is wrong but I still do it.

ArtK78, on 2012-September-26, 20:22, said:

I would always pass this hand. I like where the opps are heading on this hand, and 2♣ seems high enough to me.

I have no problem with the pass, I even think it is normal, but the pass is because the hand is weak, not because it is chock full of defense, "like where the opps are heading" is just weird to me.

[JLOGIC]

This hand is just on the borderline to me, and might come down to who your partner is and how often they try for game over the raise.

I would raise w/w at MP as I feel partner tries for game less often in that case, especially once two opponents have bid, and there is much more upside at this form of the game in raising.

I would never raise vulnerable.

That said if someone passed I would not really criticize it. As a general rule if you're not sure whether to bid w/w at MP or pass try bidding though.

[JLOGIC]

655321, on 2012-September-26, 20:50, said:

I would raise (just), but move an honor into the club suit and I would happily raise. If the vulnerability really is w/w then bidding is more attractive (especially at MP). When I have talked about this sort of hand with friends I find they often pass here, so maybe bidding is wrong but I still do it.




I have no problem with the pass, I even think it is normal, but the pass is because the hand is weak, not because it is chock full of defense, "like where the opps are heading" is just weird to me.

OMG 655321!!! As usual we are in synch

[aguahombre]

I have less concern about partner making game tries on this auction than most players would.

Partner has less expectation from my 3C raise on this auction than most partners would. Might chicken out at unfav., but otherwise would rather give the opps a bit more trouble.

[SteveMoe]

w/w + 9 trumps = 3♣. Not encouraging at all. Hoping they walk into a Major...

[JLOGIC]

I heard of a man, in the 1800s, who once chose to overcall 2C over 1D with only 5 of them. It worked spectacularly well, to the point that he was thought to be a witch. He was tortured and hanged.

[SteveMoe]

JLOGIC, on 2012-September-26, 21:28, said:

I heard of a man, in the 1800s, who once chose to overcall 2C over 1D with only 5 of them. It worked spectacularly well, to the point that he was thought to be a witch. He was tortured and hanged.

LOLROTF!!!
Actually, partner plays 'em so well most of his 5 card overcalls play like 6
Auction Whist Witch? Really???

[jogs]

SteveMoe, on 2012-September-26, 21:24, said:

w/w + 9 trumps = 3♣. Not encouraging at all. Hoping they walk into a Major...

Having 9 trumps is no guarantee your side has 9 tricks.
Even when your side has 20 points the expected tricks can be
fewer than 9.

4=4=2=3 facing 3=2=2=6 with 20 HCPs
The expected tricks is 8 2/3.

One of the two partners must hold a singleton before the
expected tricks is greater than 9.

[JLOGIC]

Quote

Having 9 trumps is no guarantee your side has 9 tricks.
Even when your side has 20 points the expected tricks can be
fewer than 9.

4=4=2=3 facing 3=2=2=6 with 20 HCPs
The expected tricks is 8 2/3.

One of the two partners must hold a singleton before the
expected tricks is greater than 9.

Once, I knew a man who went down white white at MP in 3C with half the deck and 9 clubs. He was distraught, until he learned that he got a good score, FOR GOING DOWN!!!!, because the opponents could make something.

I knew another man once, who was in 3C with 9 clubs and half the deck, white white at matchpoints. Amazingly, the opponents could not make anything, and neither could he!!! But his idiot opps saved him, with 9 diamonds, by bidding 3D.

Another time, it must have been the same hand you're talking about, I knew of an RHO who doubled 2C with 4342. Now, his partner could not take a joke over the 3C raise and bid 3H with 2452. Now, they played four diamonds, because of my raise.

[mike777]

JLOGIC, on 2012-September-26, 20:51, said:

This hand is just on the borderline to me, and might come down to who your partner is and how often they try for game over the raise.

I would raise w/w at MP as I feel partner tries for game less often in that case, especially once two opponents have bid, and there is much more upside at this form of the game in raising.

I would never raise vulnerable.

That said if someone passed I would not really criticize it. As a general rule if you're not sure whether to bid w/w at MP or pass try bidding though.

wow thanks

this is why I come to the forums to learn stuff like this, thanks.

[JLOGIC]

Bidding to 3C early in the auction when their shapes are largely undefined is going to be good if we have 9 clubs regardless of if someone has a singleton, or if we are making, or if we are down, a vast majority of the time. If we play it there and can't make, it's probably a good save. And we are unlikely to be allowed to play it there, so widening their ranges can only cause them to be less accurate.

Of course, we do not have to have 9 clubs, partner is allowed to overcall 2C on a FIVE CARD suit w/w at MP opposite a passed hand over 1D pretty liberally.

[JLOGIC]

This thread has convinced me that this is a good auction to have 3 raises (weak constructive and limit) much the same as people who play transfers over like 1m 1M X have. A natural 2N can just XX here. There are some losses involved in this but it is probably important to be able to raise light without partner thinking you have much.

[Codo]

I bid 3 ♣ and this is not close nonvul. I have a useful doubleton and they will have a harder way to find their right fit.

[gnasher]

I'd bid 3♣, regardless of vulnerability and form of scoring. The opponents' sequences are much easier if we pass, so we should strain to raise here. I wouldn't worry about how many trumps partner has - we're not that likely to get doubled anyway.

[mike777]

bluecalm, on 2012-September-26, 20:03, said:

---

For what it's worth actual hand was played at matchpoints but I am interested in what you do at IMPs too.
I passed but didn't feel well about it. As it happens raising was winning action. I polled some friends and the opinions are split.
What do you think ? If you think the hand is too weak, what is minimum addition to it to make it 3!C. If you think it's 3!C how much lighter would you go ?

I want to repeat that bidding 3c in this hand is really an expert bid.

This is why we..me...nonexperts come to the forums to see this.

[Trinidad]

mike777, on 2012-September-27, 03:05, said:

I want to repeat that bidding 3c in this hand is really an expert bid.

This is why we..me...nonexperts come to the forums to see this.

5 HCPs + 1 for the doubleton = 6 points => single raise.

What do you mean "expert bid"?

Rik

[mike777]

Trinidad, on 2012-September-27, 03:13, said:

5 HCPs + 1 for the doubleton = 6 points => single raise.

What do you mean "expert bid"?

Rik

6 pts = raise to 3 ok.....for me that is an expertbid


This shows how nonexperts are confused on this hand but youdont understand confusion.


jlogic explain much better

[aguahombre]

I doubt any experts even gave a moment's thought to counting 5+1 here. Their choice ---to bid or not to bid (Sorry, LC) --- was born in their experience with the situation.