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I used to play one way Drury. We played 2♦ as 9-11, but the suit had to be good - not KQxxx. Then opener could pass with a 4513 min or whatever.
The "good suit" rule meant we could pot 3NT with a decent 14, and bid 2NT with a good 13 or bad 14 asking for a max.
The bid was well enough defined not to need 2NT as a force, or 3 ♦ - 6♦ is just not in the picture after forgetting to open. 2♥ was forcing with 6 though! That you certainly need, imo.
Good passed hands non-Drury
#22
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Posted 2012-September-18, 16:35
barmar, on 2012-September-18, 15:51, said:
Not necessarily. Some of the rules for non-gf 2/1 are there to cater to the possibility that responder has more than the minimum for his 2/1, and you need to keep the auction alive to find out. But when partner is a passed hand, this isn't necessary.
What? Responder needs Opener to force Responder to bid so that Responder can show his extras?
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#23
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Posted 2012-September-18, 18:00
A small point: Best to sort out what is a matter of agreement, what is a matter of judgment.
If I held the W hand, playing with a partner with few agreements, when partner raises my 2♦ to 3♦. I wouold reason as follows: If I am not going to bid over 3♦ with this hand, there is no hand that I could have on this auction where I would bid on over 3♦. Partner's 3♦ must have been based on an expectation that on some hand I would go on, it doesn't get better than this, so I bid 3NT.
This means that with the current hands, not reaching game has nothing to do with the system. I say this not to be critical of your partner, but just to keep our eyes on what perhaps need discussion.
Now yes, I also would expect 3♦ to be forcing. I would have bid 2♦ if my Q♦ were the J♦, and probably also if it were the ten.
On these hands, if 3♦ is forcing, then I must still bid.
My point is that system shouldn't matter on the actual hands that you were playing. On some weaker hands, when the smoke clears, you may wish that the 3♦ had been passable. I would stick with forcing, I think almost everyone would. But sometimes you go down.
If you are worried about missing slam, I say relax a bit. Diamonds are 3-2, hearts are 3-3, etc. I suppose if I saw both hands, but not the opponents hands, I would elect to play in 6. But I wouldn't bet the house on it.
If I held the W hand, playing with a partner with few agreements, when partner raises my 2♦ to 3♦. I wouold reason as follows: If I am not going to bid over 3♦ with this hand, there is no hand that I could have on this auction where I would bid on over 3♦. Partner's 3♦ must have been based on an expectation that on some hand I would go on, it doesn't get better than this, so I bid 3NT.
This means that with the current hands, not reaching game has nothing to do with the system. I say this not to be critical of your partner, but just to keep our eyes on what perhaps need discussion.
Now yes, I also would expect 3♦ to be forcing. I would have bid 2♦ if my Q♦ were the J♦, and probably also if it were the ten.
On these hands, if 3♦ is forcing, then I must still bid.
My point is that system shouldn't matter on the actual hands that you were playing. On some weaker hands, when the smoke clears, you may wish that the 3♦ had been passable. I would stick with forcing, I think almost everyone would. But sometimes you go down.
If you are worried about missing slam, I say relax a bit. Diamonds are 3-2, hearts are 3-3, etc. I suppose if I saw both hands, but not the opponents hands, I would elect to play in 6. But I wouldn't bet the house on it.
Ken
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Posted 2012-September-19, 11:10
kenrexford, on 2012-September-18, 16:35, said:
What? Responder needs Opener to force Responder to bid so that Responder can show his extras?
I think I expressed it poorly.
My point was that when responder is unpassed, his new suit bids are forcing until he makes a bid that limits his hand, even if you're not playing 2/1 GF. But when he's a passed hand, he has already limited his hand, so very few bids are forcing, even a 2/1 response. Opener can pass with a minimum (and probably will pass with a 3rd seat subminimum).