[Antrax]

Lately I've been wondering about a possible tweak to the rule of 20 (if you're playing rule of 19 or 18 or whatever, I think it's also applicable). Do you think it makes sense to pass borderline* hands if they might cause an awkward rebid? For instance, playing standard, passing a 2=2=4=5 11-count but opening the same hand with the minors switched?
Does this make sense, or are there enough other factors to overrule this?

* hands that aren't balanced and exactly meet the requirement to open based on whatever "rule of" is being used

[han]

Just ditch the whole thing and learn to evaluate hands. How strong a hand is is more important than whether it has a convenient rebid. Especially after a marginal opening there is a good chance that the auction becomes competitive anyway. If I have x Qxxx Jxx AKJ10x I would be delighted to mention my club suit, and that I may rebid 2C on a five-card suit is a minor concern.

[Antrax]

Yes, but that's dodging the question - if my clubs are AKJTx I don't have a rebid problem
What happens if I'm looking at x QJxx KJx ATxxx?

[han]

My recommendation applies to that hand as well. First think about whether the hand is strong enough to open and do not use a silly rule for that. If you decide that it is strong enough, open it. If you decide it is not, pass. If the hand is really marginal then you can let other factors weigh in. I personally don't think that that hand has a rebid problem but that is another question.

[twoshy]

Here's a better example. Would you ever pass x KQJx xxx AJxxx in 1st or 2nd seat? That definitely has a horrible rebid, but that does not mean you should pass or open 1♥ if your partnership understands that this is a clear opening hand and that you don't open four card majors in 1st or 2nd seat (hypothetically). Listen to Han, just evaluate your hand and don't worry too much about your rebid. Having said that, make sure you have planned your rebid so that you can make it in tempo.

In my experience, choosing what to open based on your rebid in an unobstructed auction, and especially how you can handle competitive developments, is more interesting than choosing whether or not to open based on a potentially awkward rebid. This often comes up in the decision between opening a strong 1NT and opening one of a suit when semi-balanced. (I have less experience with weak NT so I don't know if this decision turns up as frequently in that context.)

[Antrax]

Am I weird for feeling "just learn to evaluate your hand" isn't really constructive advice? I thought that what I was doing, by trying to understand when certain rules are accepted. What else can one do?

[twoshy]

Okay so you were initially asking whether or not to alter the rule of 20 (19/18 etc) based on an awkward rebid. Han and I are saying you shouldn't be using the rule of 20 (19/18 etc). You're trying to incorporate more judgement into the decision about whether or not to open, but the awkwardness of a rebid is a very small factor in judging a hand compared to location and synergy of honours, supporting intermediates, etc. Also, compare ATxxx KQxx Qxx x and x Qxx KQxx ATxxx. (Add/subtract similar cards to make the decision borderline.) Would your decision about whether or not to open either of these depend on your rebid? No, you would be giving much more weight to your length in the majors and how opening 1S on the first would set you up for a contested auction, or considering your ability to stay low by opening 1C on the second. Doesn't matter so much what you value, the point is that there are many more valuable considerations than the awkwardness of a rebid. Hope this helps.

[Antrax]

Quote

the awkwardness of a rebid is a very small factor in judging a hand compared to location and synergy of honours, supporting intermediates

Thanks, that was basically my question - do you downgrade for a possible awkward rebid or not.

[paua]

Antrax, on 2012-September-16, 04:57, said:

Am I weird for feeling "just learn to evaluate your hand" isn't really constructive advice? I thought that what I was doing, by trying to understand when certain rules are accepted. What else can one do?

No, you're not weird. They are being unhelpful.

[han]

Antrax, on 2012-September-16, 05:16, said:

Thanks, that was basically my question - do you downgrade for a possible awkward rebid or not.

If that was basically your question, how can you complain about my answer? I did answer this very clearly I thought, but to summarize: no.

[Codo]

I do, but for a very small degree. But if the hand is borderline- wahtever that is to you- a possible rebid problem may be a kind of a kicker.
But this happens very very seldom- once in a thousand hands? So don't lose any sleep about this at all.

[Mbodell]

Codo, on 2012-September-16, 10:45, said:

I do, but for a very small degree. But if the hand is borderline- wahtever that is to you- a possible rebid problem may be a kind of a kicker.
But this happens very very seldom- once in a thousand hands? So don't lose any sleep about this at all.

Agree. I think you absolutely should think about your rebid and likely auctions and pass borderline hands when the rebid or likely auction is going to be bad for your side. I just think that borderline is a very small one, and it very rarely ever comes up. Certainly much less frequent then upgrading/downgrading into and out of 1nt say.

[ggwhiz]

I actually like the rule of 20 despite many crapping on it from a dizzy height.

BUT. It's a starting point as to maybe opening the bidding and gets into trouble if you stop thinking beyond that.

Body cards in your long suits (10's and 9's) plus the ease of finding a rebid are the tipping points and I think you are doing very well to consider those before your final decision to open or not. Another tipping point is can or will I want to get into the action if I pass and it's 1♠ - p - 2♠ back to me or if I own a spade suit worth bidding 2 of them next time over whatever, I don't need to stretch so much to open in first chair.

"Just evaluate your hand" doesn't say anything about what should be a 2-3 step checklist and the rule of 20 is a usefull starting point.

[Zelandakh]

When you learn about light openings in Acol it is standard to take the ease of rebid into consideration so this is definitely something which has been used by some experts. I think generally thinking about how the auction might go before opening can only be a good thing. If you have a borderline opening with a very poor main suit which you are highly likely to have to rebid then this is definitely a negative aspect which you might want to take account of in evaluating the hand. Whether you treat that as a negaztive evaluation adjustment or a tweak to a rule is neither her nor there really. All judgement is essentially some kind of tweak to an underlying rule at the end of the day.

[P_Marlowe]

Passing borderline opening hands, because of a possible rebid problems is sensible.

[P_Marlowe]

Antrax, on 2012-September-16, 04:04, said:

Yes, but that's dodging the question - if my clubs are AKJTx I don't have a rebid problem
What happens if I'm looking at x QJxx KJx ATxxx?

2C

The 2C rebid does not promise a 6 carder, it does not even promise 5 good clubs.

You could say, that the lack of controls, the dominiance of Queens and Jacks make
this a marginal opening hand, this would be fine.

A classical example for a hand with a rebid problem would be, if you swith diamonds
with hearts, and require 4 card support for raising partners major suit response.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Vampyr]

Quote

Yes, but that's dodging the question - if my clubs are AKJTx I don't have a rebid problem
What happens if I'm looking at x QJxx KJx ATxxx?

P_Marlowe, on 2012-September-19, 05:57, said:

2C

Or you could play a strong 1NT opening so that you can rebid 1NT with all of these hands. I thought that one of the reasons for playing strong NT was so that you could open a lot more marginal hands.

[P_Marlowe]

Vampyr, on 2012-September-19, 08:01, said:

Or you could play a strong 1NT opening so that you can rebid 1NT with all of these hands. I thought that one of the reasons for playing strong NT was so that you could open a lot more marginal hands.

Sure, this is an option.

Of course a NT rebid has the disadvantage, that it tells partner 1 1/2 lies, instead of only 1/2 one.
The viability of an NT rebid may also depend on your follow up structures, of shape and min value may
make things a lot worse than playing 2C with an ugly trump suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Vampyr]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-September-19, 08:20, said:

Of course a NT rebid has the disadvantage, that it tells partner 1 1/2 lies, instead of only 1/2 one.

Which lies? A singleton in his suit, and ...?

[P_Marlowe]

Vampyr, on 2012-September-19, 08:26, said:

Which lies? A singleton in his suit, and ...?

Strength? Balanced hands usually have their well defined HCP count,
due to the fact, that they dont have compensatoric values due to
distribution.
And a weak NT is 12-14, of course you could say, weak NT is 11-14.

Widening the range could have the effect, that certain methods employed
after the NR rebid may not work well any longer.

With kind regards
Marlowe