[Phil]

w/r IMPs, long matches

9xx A8xx KQ5x xx

p - (p) - 1♠ - (p);
?

[semeai]

Drury

[Hanoi5]

Mini-Drury

[SteveMoe]

If we are strict 5-card major openings in all seats, Drury (preparing to apologize for poor trumps later). If we play 2♣ Drury showing aa 3-card raise so that partner identifies 4-card trump holdings (2♦ rebid) then Drury, rebidding 2♠ if partner has only 4. If neither, then a hefty CONSTRUCTIVE 2♠ as a 3-card raise. Partner is always able to show extra interest...

[aguahombre]

At least this time, pard opened 1S in third...not 1H in fourth.

If we used Drury, we wouldn't do so with a constructive raise. But, others will not be able to resist.

[semeai]

aguahombre, on 2012-September-08, 12:00, said:

If we used Drury, we wouldn't do so with a constructive raise. But, others will not be able to resist.

Certainly this is a 2♠ bid when unpassed. Your lower limit for Drury, though, should be lower than your lower limit for a limit raise when unpassed. You don't force partner to the 3-level. Not only that, you don't force partner to the 3-level when partner has a full opener:

P-1S;2C-2D;2S shows a max constructive raise (9-10 say) and with a real limit raise (11-12 say) you bid something else/more over 2D.

Not only that, this hand may hear 2H from partner. I'm still bidding 2C even if clubs and hearts were swapped, but it's a little extra bonus.

There is the chance partner has 4 spades as a 3rd seat opener, but there's not much difference between bidding 2C and 2S for those hands. In both cases we'll likely end up in 2S, which should be fine. Rarely, even, partner will be 4-4 in the majors with much better spade texture. Then you get to play hearts if you bid Drury.

[auctions are for reverse Drury, which is what we all play presumably, though I still am just saying Drury in my post for brevity]

[aguahombre]

Many unfortunate events do indeed occur when we will be able to say, "but I was a passed hand" in the post mortem.

[semeai]

aguahombre, on 2012-September-08, 12:13, said:

Many unfortunate events do indeed occur when can say, "but I was a passed hand" in the post mortem.

Did you even read what I wrote? When you're a passed hand, you can make more precise raises that stay low because you get extra bids for them. The proper place for a max constructive raise ("9-10") is in Drury. I'm not "being aggressive," I'm describing how Drury works, or at least how I think it should.

[aguahombre]

Oh, I read what you wrote. I just prefer to stick with the idea that if pard Wants to invite game opposite a simple raise, she will invite game and I will accept. If not, we are in 2S ---without providing information to the opponents.

Using Drury, we also will probably stay at the 2-level if partner can sort out the difference between an invitational hand and this one.

[semeai]

Quote

I just prefer to stick with the idea that if pard Wants to invite game opposite a simple raise, she will invite game and I will accept. If not, we are in 2S ---without providing information to the opponents

You'll either miss some games on the 9-10 range or do worse on the rest of the hands in the simple raise by getting too high sometimes (or, more realistically, a bit of both) compared to what I suggest. Drury affords you extra precision; use it! Sure, if you were unpassed, you wouldn't get that precision, but that's not a reason to throw it away.

It's nearly free in terms of the rest of the hands in Drury, as well. Give me a hand you'd bid P-1S;2C-2D;2S on. Most real limit raises will just want to be in game opposite 2D.

The information argument is not meaningless, but it seems a poor tradeoff to, say, get too high occasionally on the lesser simple raises and miss a few games on max constructive hands in exchange for the opponents not knowing a bit more about opener's strength when you stop in 2♠ opposite a max constructive raise.

[JLOGIC]

Really Claytoen?

[JLOGIC]

semeai, on 2012-September-08, 12:09, said:

Certainly this is a 2♠ bid when unpassed. Your lower limit for Drury, though, should be lower than your lower limit for a limit raise when unpassed. You don't force partner to the 3-level. Not only that, you don't force partner to the 3-level when partner has a full opener:

P-1S;2C-2D;2S shows a max constructive raise (9-10 say) and with a real limit raise (11-12 say) you bid something else/more over 2D.

Not only that, this hand may hear 2H from partner. I'm still bidding 2C even if clubs and hearts were swapped, but it's a little extra bonus.

There is the chance partner has 4 spades as a 3rd seat opener, but there's not much difference between bidding 2C and 2S for those hands. In both cases we'll likely end up in 2S, which should be fine. Rarely, even, partner will be 4-4 in the majors with much better spade texture. Then you get to play hearts if you bid Drury.

[auctions are for reverse Drury, which is what we all play presumably, though I still am just saying Drury in my post for brevity]

Very good explanation of a basic intermediate concept

Only other thing I would add is depending on your style, some or many limit raises are opening bids (especially the 3 card LR variety), so having a lower top range is another reason that your lower range should be lower. For instance, you mention 11-12 being a "real" limit raise, but some of those hands would open.

[MickyB]

semeai, on 2012-September-08, 12:20, said:

Did you even read what I wrote?

Did you even read the other thread? If you had, you'd have given up arguing by now.

2C, wtp?

[TimG]

What do people think of a 1N response. Opener will pass this whenever he's opened a 4-card spade suit. If he rebids two of a red suit we can wake up; if he rebids 2C we can take a preference to 2S.

[gnasher]

TimG, on 2012-September-08, 15:21, said:

What do people think of a 1N response.

We've got a way to show a nine-count with three-card support, so I think we should use it.

Quote

If he rebids two of a red suit we can wake up; if he rebids 2C we can take a preference to 2S.

So we get to 3♠ when partner has AQxxx Kxxx xx Qx and to 2♠ when he has AKJxx xx xx AKxx?

[PhilKing]

I assume reading this thread counts as unfortunate.

[semeai]

JLOGIC, on 2012-September-08, 14:56, said:

Only other thing I would add is depending on your style, some or many limit raises are opening bids (especially the 3 card LR variety), so having a lower top range is another reason that your lower range should be lower. For instance, you mention 11-12 being a "real" limit raise, but some of those hands would open.

Good point. I felt like including the number 8 (or "good 8") in my little story would make it less likely to convince.

MickyB, on 2012-September-08, 15:10, said:

Did you even read the other thread? If you had, you'd have given up arguing by now.

Indeed, I missed that thread.

[mike777]

2s no problem yet, still constructive 3 card raise(8-11).

I dont play or need drury, having a passed hand 3 card limit raise is just too rare to worry about. The once in a bluemoon I bid 1nt and if pard does not pass, I bid 3s. this assumes the opp are still silent, even more rare.

[dboxley]

Phil, on 2012-September-08, 10:19, said:

w/r IMPs, long matches

9xx A8xx KQ5x xx

p - (p) - 1♠ - (p);
?

2S

[the hog]

2S. Not good enough for Drury. I find 1NT amusing for the wrong reasons.