[jmcw]

Last week, I posted the topic Bid after X and raise here. The responses were quite helpful (thanks). So, with our newly tuned responsive double we headed off to the Labour Day Sectional...confusion was just around the corner. IMP SCORING

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Uncharted territory, what was partner's 2nd X?, and what should I do now?.
Is he denying 4 card ♠?.
Showing ♣?

I decided to bid, choosing a hopeful 3♠....things got even more mystifying.
Pass 4♦ by P, Pass to you...., and partner's hand is?

[lalldonn]

You really held 32 5432 2 2 as your spot cards? Anyway, I like the double, and I like the 3♠ bid, now I would raise to 5♦. Partner's second double just showed more extras. It's still takeout. He looks to me like he is probably 3154 or something for the 4♦ bid.

[Quantumcat]

An easy rule - if you make a takeout double, subsequent doubles (of the same suit) will still be takeout, can't suddenly switch to penalty. Just says he STILL doesn't know where to play, and he has extras. (If it is a situation where he makes a takeout double and you bid, then they bid again, and he doubles again - that says very good hand, but only three-card support for your bid suit).

[aguahombre]

Excellent choice of hand for follow-up to the other thread. The "beginners or old people" previously referenced would have different inferences to deal with -- having eliminated or established spades as a fit by now, and could continue the probe for the right strain and level from there.

So, this thread is not for us BOOPS. The double of 3C would eliminate 4-4 spades if we had shown spades. The given double does not.

[jmcw]

lalldonn, on 2012-September-04, 15:56, said:

You really held 32 5432 2 2 as your spot cards? Anyway, I like the double, and I like the 3♠ bid, now I would raise to 5♦. Partner's second double just showed more extras. It's still takeout. He looks to me like he is probably 3154 or something for the 4♦ bid.

I'm thinking there should be a little more to this. No question in my mind it is still for takeout, but with the hand you suggest might P not have bid 3♦?. How might he call with extras and 4 card ♠?, X?, seems reasonable to me.
I don't see how the second X should ever deny 4 card ♠.

[jmcw]

aguahombre, on 2012-September-04, 21:06, said:

Excellent choice of hand for follow-up to the other thread. The "beginners or old people" previously referenced would have different inferences to deal with -- having eliminated or established spades as a fit by now, and could continue the probe for the right strain and level from there.

So, this thread is not for us BOOPS. The double of 3C would eliminate 4-4 spades if we had shown spades. The given double does not.

The hand really did come up. Your not a BOOP maybe just an OOP.

[jmcw]

Quantumcat, on 2012-September-04, 17:23, said:

An easy rule - if you make a takeout double, subsequent doubles (of the same suit) will still be takeout, can't suddenly switch to penalty. Just says he STILL doesn't know where to play, and he has extras. (If it is a situation where he makes a takeout double and you bid, then they bid again, and he doubles again - that says very good hand, but only three-card support for your bid suit).

Perhaps, but what call would you make when holding 4 card ♠ and extras?.
And lets not forget that if partner passes. you will almost certainly be getting a 3♥ or 4♥ bid from ops.

[lalldonn]

jmcw, on 2012-September-05, 08:45, said:

I'm thinking there should be a little more to this. No question in my mind it is still for takeout, but with the hand you suggest might P not have bid 3♦?. How might he call with extras and 4 card ♠?, X?, seems reasonable to me.
I don't see how the second X should ever deny 4 card ♠.

I agree he doesn't deny four spades with the second double, which is why as responder I bid 3♠ over 3♥. It's the 4♦ bid that denies four spades.

[ArtK78]

lalldonn, on 2012-September-04, 15:56, said:

You really held 32 5432 2 2 as your spot cards? Anyway, I like the double, and I like the 3♠ bid, now I would raise to 5♦. Partner's second double just showed more extras. It's still takeout. He looks to me like he is probably 3154 or something for the 4♦ bid.

Why is the second double (the double of 3♣) takeout? Clubs is one of the suits partner implied when he doubled 1♥. Why can't he make a penalty double here? And what is the need for a takeout double here? You already made one, and partner showed values with his responsive double. If you pass here partner can describe his hand. If the original doubler has a real diamond suit or a real spade suit, he can bid it. If he has extras he can bid 3♥ to insure that game is reached.

There comes a point in any auction where you actually have to bid suits that you have. That point has arrived when the opponents bid 3♣.

[ggwhiz]

I think my first double (usually) shows 2 places to play.

In that context, pards 2nd double (for now) shows club values/length in a defensive hand, otherwise bid something since a 3♥ bid is obviously coming from them.

I'm doubling 3♥ here instead of bidding 3♠, the pump MAY hurt them and I still have no clear direction. If/when pard pulls that to 4♦ I'll play her for big (shapely) extras.

I am by no means on firm ground, just speculating.

ps. Opposite a 3-1-5-4 the spade moyse could easily be our best spot. I expect more like a 3-0-6-4 IF pard pulls my double and if not, may well get stranded here for a smallish plus on defence.

[lalldonn]

ArtK78, on 2012-September-05, 09:22, said:

Why is the second double (the double of 3♣) takeout? Clubs is one of the suits partner implied when he doubled 1♥. Why can't he make a penalty double here? And what is the need for a takeout double here? You already made one, and partner showed values with his responsive double. If you pass here partner can describe his hand. If the original doubler has a real diamond suit or a real spade suit, he can bid it. If he has extras he can bid 3♥ to insure that game is reached.

There comes a point in any auction where you actually have to bid suits that you have. That point has arrived when the opponents bid 3♣.

What is the point of making a penalty double of a suit they won't play in? Call it what you want, the point is it shows extras without implying much extra about shape. Having to bid 3♥ just because you don't hold clubs (that is what you are suggesting?) is so incredibly bad. And it could be worse, imagine if their suit was spades. You are preempting partner for no reason, not to mention preventing him from being able to double when they go back to their suit (THAT one is penalty).

[phil_20686]

lalldonn, on 2012-September-04, 15:56, said:

You really held 32 5432 2 2 as your spot cards? Anyway, I like the double, and I like the 3♠ bid,

Really? This sequence shows an invitational hand with four spades, basically, and I judge this hand to be a little short. I would have settled for two spades here.

Partners second double can be based on a variety of hands. Extra powerful t/o is most common, but 18-19 balanced is still in play. (Although it seems impossible on this hand). I would regard 3S as creating a GF, since partner has shown extras and I have shown an invitation, I have no idea is this is a minority viewpoint? Thus I have to raise to 5d.

As to what hand partner has. I would imagine that 3154 is by far the most likely. 3064 is possible if the suit is poor and the texture of hand suggests bidding this way. 3055 is still possible too, if it is your style to double with these hands.

[han]

I would have bid 2S as well.

[lalldonn]

han, on 2012-September-06, 03:18, said:

I would have bid 2S as well.

In hindsight, me too on the actual hand. I don't feel that changes anything else I said though.

[han]

I only read your one-line posts.