[perry93]

Hey, how do i know if the suit of the responder is 5th or 4th?

If i open in a minor suit, we can use check back, but what if the bid goes like this:

1♥ - 1♠ ? Now, the opener has 3♠s, what will he do? And how the responder can show for sure 5♠s?

Thank you

[ArtK78]

You don't know. Yet.

Many players refuse to raise a simple response in a major suit with less than 4 card support. In that case, you have to make a delayed raise or perhaps respond to a checkback seeking 3 card support.

Many players will raise a simple response in a major suit with 3 card support, especially if their hand is well suited for play in that suit - for example, if opener had 3-5-4-1 shape with controls. Often, in a partnership where there are frequent 3 card raises, there will be a further checkback mechanism. For example, in the auction 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♠, a 2NT rebid by responder will ask for spade length and hand strength (3♣ - 3 card spades, minimum hand; 3♦ - 3 card spades, maximum hand; 3♥ - 4 card spades, minimum hand; 3♠ - 4 card spades, maximum hand).

One further point. If the partnership plays Flannery, then they may play that a 1♠ response to a 1♥ opening bid shows 5 spades. This was part of the original Flannery, but has been discarded by many.

[Zelandakh]

The first thing for Opener to do is to show their hand shape. If they hold a balanced hand then should probably rebid NT; if unbalanced then they will have either 6 hearts or a side 4 card minor. All of these can simply be bid. Let's say that Opener rebids 1NT. Now Responder can use the same Checkback as after a minor suit opening, so no problem here in finding the 5-3 spade fit. How about when Opener rebids a minor? Well, now one option is for Responder to use 4th suit forcing. Having created a game force, it should now be relatively easy to locate the 5-3 spade fit. The hardest case is where Opener has rebid their hearts, showing 6 or more. In this situation you sometimes have to bid a 3 card minor at the 3 level in order to create a force and investigate what the best game contract is. Of course, if you have 2 hearts here you can give up on the spade fit and support partner instead.

Finally, in some systems Opener is allowed to raise spades with 3 card support and a suitable hand. This is system-dependant so you will have to tell us which bidding system you are learning for a definitive answer. As a general rule though, American and British systems are quite friendly towards 3 card raises while French and German methods tend to prohibit this.

If this is all a little too abstract and general then please post one or more hands and we can discuss some more specific cases.

[Quantumcat]

You should check with your partner before doing so, but nearly everyone raises a major-suit response with three cards. It goes like this:

Raising a 1-level major-suit response directly shows 11-14(15), three or four card support:
1♣ 1♥
2♥

Jump-raising a 1-level major-suit response shows about 15-17, four card support:
1♣ 1♥
3♥

Bidding something else, then raising later shows about 16-18 (maybe a good 15), three card support:
1♣ 1♥
1♠ 1NT
2♥

How does responder deal with the uncertainty of not knowing whether there is an eight-card fit or not? Very simple:

With a balanced game hand (with four trumps) he rebids 3NT. Opener can pass (with three trumps) or bid 4-major (with four):
1♣ 1♥
2♥ 3NT
pass (three trumps)

Or,
1♣ 1♥
2♥ 3NT
4♥ (four trumps)

With a balanced invitational hand (with four trumps) he rebids 2NT. Opener can pass if not accepting with 3 trumps, he can bid 3-major if not accepting with four trumps, he can bid 3NT if accepting with 3 trumps, or bid 4-major if accepting with four trumps:
1♣ 1♥
2♥ 2NT
pass (bad hand three trumps)

Or,
1♣ 1♥
2♥ 2NT
3♥ (bad hand four trumps)

Or,
1♣ 1♥
2♥ 2NT
3NT (good hand three trumps)

Or,
1♣ 1♥
2♥ 2NT
4♥ (good hand four trumps)

With less than an invitation, responder passes with four or five trumps. With an invitational hand and five trumps, responder bids 3-major to which opener may pass or bid 4-major. With a game hand and five trumps responder bids the obvious 4-major. With an unbalanced hand and invitation or better but four trumps responder may bid a new suit, or raise partner's with just an invitational hand.

[perry93]

Very helpful, thanks everyone!

[the hog]

"You should check with your partner before doing so, but nearly everyone raises a major-suit response with three cards."

This is incorrect. Poles and French require 4 cards to raise. Perhaps Quantumcat allowed her youthful exuberance to run away with her. Whether you allow 3 or 4 card raises really depends on your partnership preferences.

[neilkaz]

the hog, on 2012-August-01, 21:55, said:

"You should check with your partner before doing so, but nearly everyone raises a major-suit response with three cards."

This is incorrect. Poles and French require 4 cards to raise. Perhaps Quantumcat allowed her youthful exuberance to run away with her. Whether you allow 3 or 4 card raises really depends on your partnership preferences.

Here in America, many of my pd's are very unhappy if I raise with 3 cards routinely. Of course some of them would do better if they improved their declarer play and learned how to better handle a 4-3 fit.

[Vampyr]

It's good to have a reason to raise with 3 cards. A singleton or HHx make it more attractive.

[Quantumcat]

Three-card raises are completely sound. For the price of occasionally playing 2-major in a 4-3 fit (which is sometimes better than 1NT anyway) you remove ALL headaches for responder when he has a five-card suit and a good hand. You will also end in an 8-card partscore fit instead of a 7-card fit or 1NT every time responder has five cards in his major and a weak hand (can give you examples if you ask). You only need to be afraid of 4-3 2-major fits when you are a really really bad declarer, or just haven't had much practice at them. The latter can be easily remedied, and very few people would truly fit the former.

Think of it this way. Jacoby transfers over 1NT have SO many benefits that the prospect of occasionally playing in a 5-2 fit is certainly not grounds for choosing to not transfer with "only" a 5 card major suit with a weak hand. And not grounds for opener to bid 2NT anytime he has only 2 cards in the major.

[the hog]

QC no one said they were not sound. The debate was on how common they are. As I and some others stated, they are not common at all in certain places.
Whether they are a good bid or not depends on the rest of your hand, of course as has also been pointed out above. for example, after 1C 1H, 1NT is far more descriptive on:
AJX xxx Kx AJxxx
than a 2H bid.

[Quantumcat]

OK, I did not realise that. Here, it would be understood without saying. However if I was called into the club to play with an old lady, then I would be sure to have four cards for my raise. A few years ago on the first board of the night I raised with 3 and the old lady was almost in tears by the time she finished playing her four heart contract (hearts broke 5-1 and defenders were good) so I have made sure not to do that again. In regards to your given hand, you are free to bid 1NT instead of raise whenever you think you'd rather play in 3NT than 4-major with an 8-card fit. People lie about their trumps all the time if they think NT would be a better contract (e.g. not using stayman with 4333, or not raising partner's minor if a notrump bid looks at all feasible).

[Vampyr]

Quantumcat, on 2012-August-02, 21:25, said:

OK, I did not realise that. Here, it would be understood without saying.

It has been pointed out to you before that the regulations and bidding styles in your part of the world are not standard everywhere. I think that a reminder will not be out of place.

Quote

However if I was called into the club to play with an old lady,

I realise that here you are talking about a specific old lady, but you should in general stop making disparaging comments about "old people". Yes, you are very young; congratulations. Believe it or not, we all once were. Someday you will be whatever you today consider "old" too. Perhaps this seems unthinkable now, but it is better than the alternative.

[Quantumcat]

Sorry, I only meant people you don't know the history of. I admire many times more older bridge players than young ones. It's just that I know all the young ones, so I know what sorts of habits they have and who taught them, but can't make any such assumptions about people I don't know. I did advise the guy to ask his partner rather than make any assumptions. As for things being standard in different places - fair point, things like natural vs. standard count, or weak NT vs. strong NT, are just as good as each other and which one is right only depends on your location. But sometimes something is just better than the alternative. It's normal at my club and surrounding ones to double an opening bid with just an opening hand, if they have a take-out shape it is purely coincidental. However when my partner (he is way better than me) gets asked his opinion on how to bid a hand better, he won't take into account this prevailing habit, he will still give proper bridge advice. I'm only trying to give what I believe to be good bridge advice, not taking into account what habits people have.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 I would not recommend 3 card raises to a player, who starts playing, espesially 3
card raises on balanced hands.
It is already hard to understand, that the opening of 1 minor can be treated as a
bid promising 4+, if the auction continues, unless you never say, "How could I
raise / do something, he only showed 2+ / 3+, when he opened with 1C?", you should not
start picking up 3 card raises, espesially 3 card raises on bal. hands.

Also knowing, how to play 4-3 fits is certainly useful, but first learn, how to play
your 8 card fits.

#2 If you start playing 3 card raises on a regular basis, you need tools to find out,
how many trumps opener has, and you need to have the option, to find this out in a
forcing manner.
There exists tools for this, but my guess is, that a beginner has more serious things
to learn, than this.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

As I wrote above, it is not a question of "habits" or "opinion", nor even age(!), but rather about system. In France (SEF) and Germany (Forum D) you are not allowed to raise partner's major suit response with 3 card support. This is systemic. It also has knock-on effects to other bidding problems. For example, the so-called "BW Death Hand", a strong one-suiter with 3 card support for partner; one solution to this in SEF/Forum D is to rebid a 3 card major at the one level. Since partner will never raise with 3 card support, this is much safer than in British or American systems.

In other words, there is an upside and a downside to playing this way. But to get the benefits you need to be playing this systemically, by agreement. Recommending 3-card raises to someone who is going to be learning in France or Germany is simply bad advice. Therefore I mentioned the possibility with some regional advice plus a suggestion of providing the bidding system being learnt should that not cover it. I still do not know where the OP is but it seems from the answer on #5 that the 4 examples given covered it, so I would guess one of these. Subsequently muddying the waters by saying that 3 card raises are sound, etc is unhelpful. They are sound in SAYC, 2/1 and Acol; they are unsound in SEF and Forum D. This is just the same as saying that responding 2♦ over 1♠ with a non-descript 10 count is sound. Yes it is - in Acol; it is not in 2/1. The point is that there are many ways to construct a bidding system and someone learning the game is best advised to stick with the methods being taught in their local area.

[Fluffy]

perry93, on 2012-July-31, 06:46, said:

Hey, how do i know if the suit of the responder is 5th or 4th?

You don't and you don't care, your objective as opener is to explain your hand and leave decisions to responder who will have more info than you on all rounds of the bidding.

Your partner will let you know he has 5 cards by bidding another suit later if he is strong enough for that. If he is not you will play a partscore that might be suboptimum.

[phil_20686]

Vampyr, on 2012-August-03, 12:13, said:

I realise that here you are talking about a specific old lady, but you should in general stop making disparaging comments about "old people".

But then social science came along and provided convincing evidence that our generation is much smarter than yours

The Flynn Effect

[rmnka447]

One key factor in the play of most 4-3 fits is who will have to take any ruffs that are necessary. Usually, it's important that the 3 card support be able to do so. That way declarer with the 4 card suit won't have to be forced into ruffing and potentially losing control of the trump suit. Defender's trumps are more likely to be 4-2 than 3-3, so a single ruff by declarer can be very detrimental to making the contract.

It's something to consider in deciding whether to raise with 3 or not.

[Vampyr]

phil_20686, on 2012-August-07, 07:17, said:

But then social science came along and provided convincing evidence that our generation is much smarter than yours

The Flynn Effect

From that article:

Quote

In the United Kingdom, a study by Flynn (2009) found that tests carried out in 1980 and again in 2008 show that the IQ score of an average 14-year-old dropped by more than two points over the period.

[Quantumcat]

You would have to look at their studies carefully. Perhaps in 1980 they chose a slightly different population of kids than in 2008.