[Zelandakh]

1♦ = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1♥ = INV+ relay
1♠ = min, not 4 spades unless also 4 hearts
... - 1NT = GF relay
2♣ = 4+ clubs
... - 2♦ = relay
2♠ = 5+ diamonds, 5+ clubs
... - 2NT = relay
3♣ = 0-1 spades
... - 3♦ = relay
3NT = 1255, 3 controls

Then either continue relays or
... - 4♦ = puppet to 4♥
4♥
... - 4♠ = RKCB for diamonds
5♥ = 2 or 5 key cards with ♦Q
... - 7♦

I like the RKCB option best here I think. If I think about it for half an hour or so I can probably find a way to ask about the ♣J too, but the TD tends to get a bit upset with you when you try that at the table! I am surrpised noone has given an auction to 7NT yet; even more surprised that so many expert pairs languished in 6♦. The 2NT - 6♦ auction...was 2NT strong balanced or both minors?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2012-August-13, 07:43, said:

I am surprised no one has given an auction to 7NT ....

As one poster put it, South thought he might need a ♣-ruff ( ... doesn't know about the Jack ) .

[kenrexford]

I probably could have one of the more rapid auctions conceivable:

2♣-2♠(positive with one or both minors)
2NT(yes?)-3♠(stiff spade)
7♦

But, I'd probably be safe as Opener and use RKCB for diamonds.


EDIT: Why am I doing that?!?!? 7NT seems obvious now.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

bluecalm, on 2012-August-13, 03:18, said:

W/e there is to show 22-23 balanced then 3S as minors and it's easy ride from there as S see there are no major suit losers and A♣ completes the hand. I consider it to be very easy grand to bid.

For example:

2C - 2D
2N - 3S
4D - 4S (cuebid)
4N - 5S (2key cards + QD)
7D

13 tricks because partner has at least one 5 card minor.

If 3S! shows BOTH minors, I'm sure you have sequences where Responder has only ONE long minor, slammish.
The 2006 ACBL bulletin solved that problem in this way:
After
2NT - 3S! = relay to 3NT

3NT - ?? then:
........ Pass = to play ( Needed since direct 3N is major 44 )
........ 4C = slam try in clubs
........ 4D = slam try in diam
........ 4H = h splinter, both minors
........ 4S = s splinter, both minors
........ 4N = invitational to 6N ( both minors , no shortness?? 4/4, 4/5 or 5/4 )
........ 5N = forcing to 6N, invitational to 7N

Thus,
p - 2C
2D! ( waiting, but positive )
..... - 2NT ( 22-24 )
3S!
..... - 3NT ( forced )
4S! ( minors, ♠-shortness )
..... - 4NT ( 6 Ace RKC )
5S ( 2 + 1Q )
..... - 7D

[bluecalm]

I don't like it. I don't want relays to 3NT, I want a bid to show minors so partner can bid 3NT if he doesn't like minors.
Why not use 4C/4D as natural slam tries ?

Quote

Pass = to play ( Needed since direct 3N is major 44 )

This is bad. They double 3S often enough to hurt you. Added precision will never be worth it and you can't play 3NT opposite hand with minors which sucks.

Quote

4S! ( minors, ♠-shortness )
..... - 4NT ( 6 Ace RKC )

While 3S as transfer to 3N is bad this is very very bad, you can't even play 4NT now.
So if opener is 4-4-3-2 you are in 5-3 or 4-3 5m instead of NT game.

This is what happens when some crazy tinkerer start writing systems forgetting about how bridge scoring works.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

bluecalm, on 2012-August-13, 09:22, said:

I don't like it. I don't want relays to 3NT, I want a bid to show minors so partner can bid 3NT if he doesn't like minors.
Why not use 4C/4D as natural slam tries ?

I have a feeling that the direct 4C! is Gerber and 4D! is Texas .

[awm]

My methods over 2nt:

3c = regular stayman, need not have 4M if slammish with a minor.
3c...3x...4m = natural 5+ suit slam try; need not have 4M
3s = both minors slam try
3nt = to play
Various transfers

So yes 3s shows both minors. One suited minor hands start 3c. This works quite a bit better than the terrible (IMO) method where 3s forces 3nt.

[bluecalm]

Quote

3c...3x...4m = natural 5+ suit slam try; need not have 4M

What happens if opener has both majors ?
2N - 3C
? - ? how to bid: a)slam try in partner's major b)slam try in our minor here ?

[Fluffy]

poeple who open 2NT with north's hand were in better position than those who open 2NT with south's

I don't think any table was able to open 1♣

[awm]

bluecalm, on 2012-August-13, 19:48, said:

What happens if opener has both majors ?
2N - 3C
? - ? how to bid: a)slam try in partner's major b)slam try in our minor here ?

a) Bid the other major at the cheapest level.
b) Bid 4m.

The specific sequence 2nt-3c-3h-4m-4s may be a bit ambiguous (it's a suit; usually opener has a cheaper cue to accept slam try in the minor).

[Zelandakh]

A compromise between Adam's method and the others posted is to note that hands with a single 5 card minor can go via 3♣ and then the 3♠ response can be 6+ clubs or both minors, at least 5-5. In other words, simply make a 3♠ response into a club transfer. A 4♣ response can handle the slam hands with long diamonds.

[lalldonn]

Adam, I pretty much do what you do but this is why Hampson taught me to play in response to stayman you bid 3NT or 4♣ with both majors. That way if opener simply bids a major and responder next bids a minor, opener bidding the other major is clearly not natural.

Also we use a direct 4♣ as just diamonds, meaning we only go through stayman with just clubs so that further reduces the problem. I have never wanted to respond gerber to 2NT opening bid in my life.

[bluecalm]

I think 3N as both majors goes well with stayman promising 4M because then 4C/4D after 3N are slam tries in H/S.
I think it doesn't work in Adam's version as being able to make a slam try in openers major seems to be very important.

[JLOGIC]

lalldonn, on 2012-August-14, 01:44, said:

Adam, I pretty much do what you do but this is why Hampson taught me to play in response to stayman you bid 3NT or 4♣ with both majors. That way if opener simply bids a major and responder next bids a minor, opener bidding the other major is clearly not natural.

Also we use a direct 4♣ as just diamonds, meaning we only go through stayman with just clubs so that further reduces the problem. I have never wanted to respond gerber to 2NT opening bid in my life.

I have played this but it still gets a little bit tricky over 2N 3C 4C, presumably you play 4D/4H transfers over this which leaves 4S and 4N with the club one suiters. That is ok, but personally I prefer to just play 3S=minors or diamonds, and 4C direct is clubs. This might wrongside some minors, but it's easy to deal with imo. Both are fine.

You could also play that you just bid 3N with 4-4 majors and don't specify min/max, then use the room for something like 4C=slam try in a major, 4D= club 1 suiter, 4H=keycard in clubs 4S=keycard hearts 4N keycard spades (trying to deal with the wrongsiding issues), but you still wrongside the major with a slam try.

I agree that the whole relay thing is not good, opener should have the option to give information over 3S. I also think it's important to not play gerber. I think a lot of europeans do something as simple as 3S=minors 4C=hearts, 4D=spades 4H=clubs 4S=diamonds. Personally that seems too bulky to me but that would be way better than the usual US systems.

[han]

What do you mean by bulky Justin?

[JLOGIC]

han, on 2012-August-14, 08:13, said:

What do you mean by bulky Justin?

It leaves you with less room than other methods recommended here. The extra step or two could be useful esp for keycarding/queen ask etc. For instance I would much rather bid 2N 4C than 2N 4H with clubs, and 2N 3S 4x 4D with diamonds, rather than 2N 4S with diamonds. I think those 2 steps are important with so little room to begin with.

I am also not convinced that the extra step from playing 2 under in the majors rather than 1 under is actually useful at all, so I don't really count it as a gain /colormeamerican.

[bluecalm]

I like:

2N - ?
3S = minors
3N = to play
4C/D = slam try in that suit

Now, 5-4's and 5-5 in majors are bid via Smolen. Slam tries in one major are bid via transfer and 2nd major.
After stayman you can bid 3N with both majors and then use 4C/4D as slam tries in H/S. You can use transfers if you prefer right siding and then maybe 4C as puppet to slam try or w/e.
Stayman and then 4m is 4M-5m SI.
4H/4S are free, may be used for w/e.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

bluecalm, on 2012-August-14, 19:55, said:

I like:
After stayman you can bid 3N with both majors and then use 4C/4D as slam tries in H/S.

Bluecalm.....

I don't understand the above sequence . Give me an example ?
[ eg. What if Opener responds a Major to Stayman and Responder only has the other Major, wouldn't Responder also bid 3NT ? ]