[Fluffy]

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on the ♠A lead partner plays ♠6 and declarer ♠7, what now? (high encouraging)

[CSGibson]

If its teams and I trust my partner, I think its clear to continue with a 2nd round of spades, after which partner will hopefully switch to his singleton.

Partner can count to 4 also, and he knows I need a trump trick to beat this, so with the king of clubs and no singleton he should discourage so that I find the club switch, whether or not he has the king of spades also.

[yin970902]

It looks like having 3 tricks,2♠,1♥.Where is 4th trick?
maybe ruff ♦ or get ♣K.how to do?
North opens 2D under vol VS novol.Then, he maybe have
1\♠KQxxxx,♥xx,♦x,♣Kxxx,
____should back ♦,but if partner has singleton♦,he will get ♠K and back ♦.
2\♠KQxxxx,♥x,♦xxxx,♣Kx,
____back ♣,dummy's ♦KQ discard declarer's ♠xx.4♥ will be claimed.
but,nothing can take away the 4♥ auction.
3\♠KQxxxx,♥xx,♦xx,♣Kxx,
____back ♣

So,back ♣J

[CSGibson]

yin970902, on 2012-August-10, 22:24, said:

It looks like having 3 tricks,2♠,1♥.Where is 4th trick?
maybe ruff ♦ or get ♣K.how to do?
North opens 2D under vol VS novol.Then, he maybe have
1\♠KQxxxx,♥xx,♦x,♣Kxxx,
____should back ♦,but if partner has singleton♦,he will get ♠K and back ♦.
2\♠KQxxxx,♥x,♦xxxx,♣Kx,
____back ♣,dummy's ♦KQ discard declarer's ♠xx.4♥ will be claimed.
but,nothing can take away the 4♥ auction.
3\♠KQxxxx,♥xx,♦xx,♣Kxx,
____back ♣

So,back ♣J

You are missing an obvious case:

partner has a singleton club, and we are to give him a club ruff. This is just as likely as a singleton diamond (or maybe almost as likely - the 3H bidder would surely have no qualms about bidding with a secondary diamond fit, but might with a misfit).

You also aren't taking into consideration partner's encouraging signal. Partner cannot have the king of clubs for this, in my opinion, unless partner has not thought through the defense. The key, therefore, is giving partner his ruff, so get him in with the spade and let partner switch to his singleton instead of guessing what his singleton may be.

[rhm]

CSGibson, on 2012-August-10, 19:20, said:

If its teams and I trust my partner, I think its clear to continue with a 2nd round of spades, after which partner will hopefully switch to his singleton.

which is very likely to be in hearts.

Quote

Partner can count to 4 also, and he knows I need a trump trick to beat this, so with the king of clubs and no singleton he should discourage so that I find the club switch, whether or not he has the king of spades also.

Assume partner holds ♠KQxxxx,♥x,♦xxx,♣Kxx.

So according to your analysis partner should discourage.
May I point out to you that only 3 rounds of spades will beat the contract even though partner has no side suit singleton and the king of clubs!
Tough to find this defense if partner can count to 4 and his signal relates to the king of clubs and not to his holding in spades.
If partner has both the king and queen of spades there is probably no need to switch immediately to clubs even if partner has the king of clubs.

This shows how difficult attitude signals are and how to interpret them. Attitude signals seem always to assume that third hand knows how the defense should go, while opening leader fumbles in the dark.
Apparently while opening leader has difficulty visualizing partner's hand no such problems exist for partner himself. In my experience the reality is somewhat more blurred.

Rainer Herrmann

[phil_20686]

I would play the J of clubs. This loses when partner has a singleton diamond, true, but that would give partner four clubs. Besides, three rounds of spades may work better later. If he has a singleton club, he will be forced with an unappetising choice, he will play a heart to an honour, and it will hold, if plays a heart to the J I can win and play spade spade for -1. If he crosses in diamonds to play a heart up he will lose if I have two or four hearts. If I have two I will win and give partner a diamond ruff. If I have four I can win and force him in clubs, and he no longer has the entries to untangle the heart suit without promoting a trump trick.

Moreover, if Partner has a singleton heart, (and it isn't the ten), the only hope for the defence is a club trick.

[JLOGIC]

rhm, on 2012-August-11, 01:59, said:

Assume partner holds ♠KQxxxx,♥x,♦xxx,♣Kxx.

May I point out to you that only 3 rounds of spades will beat the contract even though partner has no side suit singleton and the king of clubs!

Very good point and somewhat ashamed to admit that I missed this. No doubt the correct answer.

[phil_20686]

JLOGIC, on 2012-August-11, 05:01, said:

Very good point and somewhat ashamed to admit that I missed this. No doubt the correct answer.

IF that is partners hand, we can play spades later no?

EDIT: Oh wait, you mean he can play three rounds of diamonds discarding a spade and then endplay your partner? That is surely basically an impossibly DD line?

EDIT AGAIN: Forget everything I wrote, I thought the hand was over dummy.

[CSGibson]

rhm, on 2012-August-11, 01:59, said:

which is very likely to be in hearts.


Assume partner holds ♠KQxxxx,♥x,♦xxx,♣Kxx.

So according to your analysis partner should discourage.

Yes, partner should discourage, because he's got to be thinking of the most likely defense to set the contract, which is that he gets a club trick before the diamonds run. I stand by my analysis, though I recognize that your hand is kind of cool, it seems YOU are giving partner "perfect information" when signalling by saying he should encourage with that hand, which is kind of funny when you think of it.

[twoshy]

CSGibson, on 2012-August-11, 08:38, said:

Yes, partner should discourage, because he's got to be thinking of the most likely defense to set the contract, which is that he gets a club trick before the diamonds run. I stand by my analysis, though I recognize that your hand is kind of cool, it seems YOU are giving partner "perfect information" when signalling by saying he should encourage with that hand, which is kind of funny when you think of it.

No he isn't, it's actually very logical from partner's perspective. We responded 2♠ so partner knows that we have longer hearts than spades. If we had three spades we certainly would have competed to the three level. Partner should assume that we have another spade for his signal to matter, else we will shift to a club - we won't play for a diamond ruff when that would need partner to be exactly 6214 and if we had been dealt four trumps it would be impossible. So, he'll play us for 2=3 or 2=4 in the majors. If we are 2=4, we still need a trump trick. Playing three rounds of spades works if we have the ♥A or ♥K and only fails if we have the ♥Q: declarer can ruff the spade, run the ♥J and we're stuffed. So it appears that the club shift works better, however you have to factor in holding the ♥T in addition to the Q, which makes the spade continuation work, as well as, more commonly, the times when declarer discards spades on the diamonds (with 3514, for example). Nothing works if we are 2=3 with the ♥Q or ♥K, but the only defense to beat it when we have the ♥A is three rounds of spades. Again, the danger of declarer discarding spades with 3613 and leading to the ♥J to lead up to the ♣Q is very real.

I wouldn't expect to work all this out but I would feel pretty silly for discouraging spades so we could win in exactly one case - ♥Qxxx - compared to the numerous cases that are won by continuing spades.

[JLOGIC]

Declarer could have Jxx KQTxx Txx QJ in which case a club shift would be necessary so it's not like it's a lock. But I agree.

We basically cannot get this right all the time, there are too many factors (notably the DT for an entry, the heart spots, etc). On this hand I think we should continue spades since we have the DT and exactly 3 diamonds and only A9x of hearts. But that's not a lock either.

[jogs]

CSGibson, on 2012-August-10, 23:46, said:

You also aren't taking into consideration partner's encouraging signal. Partner cannot have the king of clubs for this, in my opinion, unless partner has not thought through the defense. The key, therefore, is giving partner his ruff, so get him in with the spade and let partner switch to his singleton instead of guessing what his singleton may be.

This is a blind spot in many player's game. You lead. Declarer plays immediately from dummy. Partner also plays immediately without fully thinking out the situation. Partner should wait 30 seconds before playing. Don't fall into the trap set by declarer playing quickly.
CSGibson is right. Partner cannot have ♠K and ♣K, as he would have misdefended. You cannot assume partner has disdefended.

[JLOGIC]

30 seconds? really?

[bluecalm]

Isn't it standard to play low/high = suit preference, middle = encouraging ? I mean, partner showed 6 spades.

[Fluffy]

partner had:

♠KQxxxxx
♥xx
♦xxx
♣Q

[rhm]

deleted

[blackshoe]

JLOGIC, on 2012-August-11, 21:25, said:

30 seconds? really?

Some of us old farts don't think as fast as you do, Justin.

[phil_20686]

blackshoe, on 2012-August-12, 08:16, said:

Some of us old farts don't think as fast as you do, Justin.

When I read this I understood it to mean that 30 seconds was not nearly long enough.