[32519]

After a 1NT opening, I have to make choices as to which conventions to include in my partnership bidding agreements. As I cannot have them all, which should I retain and which should I give up on? E.g.
1. 2♠ initiating a minor suit signoff (as is part of SAYC)
2. 2♠ as Minor Suit Stayman
3. 2♠ as a transfer to ♣ (4-way transfers)
4. 2NT as invitational to 3NT, no 4-card major
5. 2NT as a transfer to ♦ (4-way transfers)
6. 3♣ as Puppet Stayman
7. 3♣ as a ♣ bust
8. 3♣ as invitational to 3NT, decent 6-card suit
9. 3♣ as a minor suit game invite (force?), 5-5 in the minors
10. 3♦ as a ♦ bust
11. 3♦ as invitational to 3NT, decent 6-card suit
12. 3♦ as a minor suit game force (slam interest?), 5-5 in the minors

These are just some possibilities. There are others e.g.
13. 3♥/3♠ as slam interest in the suit

Assume 2/1 as your system with plenty of gadgets. Faced with all these choices, which would be more beneficial to retain. Frequency of occurrence can play a role here.

[Vampyr]

32519, on 2012-July-07, 00:19, said:

6. 3♣ as Puppet Stayman

Play 2♣ as Stayman and 3♣ as 5-card Stayman. Do not play Puppet Stayman.

[Siegmund]

Well, you've got a list there of messages you would like to send as responder. (The messages don't have to be tied to the 2S, 2NT, 3C, 3D names you've stuck on the start of each line.)

Choose meanings for 2S through 3D that allow you to show as many of those 12 hand types as possible. Doesn't have to be the same meanings that are in all the books. There are several ways to show 10 or 11 of those holdings by responder.

[gwnn]

Vampyr, on 2012-July-07, 00:34, said:

Play 2♣ as Stayman and 3♣ as 5-card Stayman. Do not play Puppet Stayman.

I assume you mean that
3D=no 5 card major, may have a 4 card major
3M=5 cards
3NT=does not exist
is 5-card stayman and
3D=at least one 4 card major
3M=5 cards
3NT=denies any 4-card major
is puppet?

I admit I'm not so good in googling/searching anymore but this is new to me. Is this standard nomenclature?

[Cyberyeti]

gwnn, on 2012-July-07, 02:43, said:

I assume you mean that
3D=no 5 card major, may have a 4 card major
3M=5 cards
3NT=does not exist
is 5-card stayman and
3D=at least one 4 card major
3M=5 cards
3NT=denies any 4-card major
is puppet?

I admit I'm not so good in googling/searching anymore but this is new to me. Is this standard nomenclature?

I prefer one of Crowhurst's schemes for the 3♣ which we use as our 2N-3♣ method

3♦= no 5M, also not 2♠+2-3♥
3M=5M
3N=2♠+2-3♥

over 3♦ traditionally you bid the 4 card major you hold, but I think it's better for 3♥ to say I don't hold 4♥ as this means the better hand plays the contract.

The advantage of using 2N-3♣-3N in this way, is that responder knows with 5♠/4♥ that he has an 8 card major suit when opener bids 3♦ and can pull 3N knowing opener holds 3♠ if he doesn't have 4♥. This may not be necessary if you play smolen, or you can use smolen with 6-4s.

[gordontd]

gwnn, on 2012-July-07, 02:43, said:

I admit I'm not so good in googling/searching anymore but this is new to me. Is this standard nomenclature?

I think the distinction (that is not recognised in North America, and possibly not outside the UK) is that in Puppet Stayman, after 3♦ you bid the four-card major you don't have, but in five-card Stayman you bid the one you do have. I have a feeling (but am happy to be corrected) that in North America the second one of these is played but given the name of the first one. If so, I'm not sure where the term "Puppet" comes from.

[hrothgar]

Don't think gadgets, think systems.

There are a variety of well designed bidding systems over 1NT openings
Most of these work quite well.

However, if you try mixing and matching - for example taking some treatments from Keri and others from Scanian - you'll probably just shoot yourself in the foot.

[kenrexford]

Two Spades as one or both minors and weak, or both strong. Opener bids 2NT with diamond preference. Responder bids short if strong.

[akwoo]

Another choice is 3♣ as transfer to diamonds. You lose the super-accept in diamonds but get back the 2n invite.

[blackshoe]

Root & Pavlicek, iirc, recommended, in Modern Bridge Conventions:

2♠: Minor Suit Stayman
2NT: transfer to clubs
3♣: transfer to diamonds
3♦/♥/♠:4441, short in the suit bid, GF (with club shortage, go through Stayman

Marty Bergen's latest approach is that 2♠ is a transfer to clubs, 2NT is natural, and there is no transfer to diamonds. I don't remember how he uses the 3 bids.

I've always liked Romex Stayman. After 3♣:

3NT: 44 in the majors
3♠: 5 spades
3♥: 4 or 5 hearts
3♦: fewer than 5 spades, fewer than 4 hearts.

[keylime]

I think for a serious p'ship, Keri, Kleinman's or Walsh's engine works well.

[32519]

How do we go about retaining as many of the options as possible as mentioned in the OP? Thus far I like what blackshoe has suggested the most. +1 for blackshoe.

How about this?
Step 1: Free up the 3♥/3♠ bids as suggested in point 13 as follows –
a) To signoff in game, no slam interest, use Texas/SA Texas over 1NT
b) With slam interest, use Jacoby Transfer bids followed by a raise to game. Opener’s holding in the suit will determine whether he/she continues with the slam try.

Step 2: The 2♣ bid will need to be loaded with multi purpose options, including –
a) Regular Stayman/Garbage Stayman
b) 8-9 HCP, no 4-card major, invitational to 3NT (point 4 in the OP)
c) ♣ bust (point 7 in the OP)

So what will the continuation bidding look like now over 2♣?
With a typical Stayman/Garbage Stayman type hand, nothing changes.
With 8-9 HCP, no 4-card major, invitational to 3NT; bid 2NT irrespective of what opener’s response to the 2♣ bid is. Opener with 4-4 in the majors and a maximum hand can “test the water” after the sequence: 1NT-2♣-2♥-2NT with a follow up bid of 3♠. Responder without a 4-card ♠ suit signs off in 3NT and with a 4-card ♠ suit signs off in 4♠.
With a ♣ bust, repeat the suit at level 3 irrespective of what the Stayman response was. Opener is expected to pass the 3♣ bid.

2♠ as Minor Suit Stayman is retained (point 2 in the OP)

2NT as a transfer to ♦ is retained (point 5 in the OP)

3♦ as a decent 6-card suit invitational to 3NT is retained (point 11 in the OP)

Step 3: Use the 3♥/3♠ bids which have been freed up as follows –
a) 3♥ as a minor suit game invite (force?), 5-5 in the minors (point 9 in the OP)
b) 3♠ as a minor suit game force (slam interest), 5-5 in the minors (point 12 in the OP)

The following get discarded as they have been accommodated in a different manner –
a) 2♠ initiating a minor suit signoff sequence (point 1 in the OP)
b) 2♠ as a transfer to ♣ (4-way transfers) (point 3 in the OP)
c) 2NT as invitational to 3NT, no 4-card major (point 4 in the OP)
d) 3♣ as a ♣ bust (point 7 in the OP)
e) 3♣ as a minor suit game invite (force), 5-5 in the minors (point 9 in the OP)
f) 3♦ as a ♦ bust (point 10 in the OP)
g) 3♦ as a minor suit game force (slam interest), 5-5 in the minors (point 12 in the OP)

That leaves us with the following two options still unaccounted for –
a) 3♣ as Puppet Stayman (point 6 in the OP)
b) 3♣ as a decent 6-card suit, invitational to 3NT (point 8 in the OP)

I was unable to find a way to include both. For non PS players, you have no problem. Use the 3♣ bid as a decent 6-card suit, invitational to 3NT.

Blackshoes’s post punched a hole into this suggestion. How do I show a 4441 hand pattern as responder?

[Flem72]

32519, on 2012-July-08, 08:27, said:

Blackshoes's post punched a hole into this suggestion. How do I show a 4441 hand pattern as responder?

1N-2D*
2H-2S**
2N***-?

2D = transfer
2S = negatory, I hold GF+ 4x1 or 2-2-(5-4)
2N = which?
3X = stiff, 3N = 2-2-(5-4)

1N -2D*
2S**-?

2D = transfer
2S = super in H

Now, 2N = H stiff, 3C = C stiff, 3D = retransfer, 3H = S stiff, 3N = 2-2-(5-4)

Of course, this creates purterbations....

[Gerben42]

My preferred combination:

2♠ = 1-suited in minor OR invitational to 3NT (opener bids 3♣ with a maximum)
2NT = both minors
3m = Natural, game interest
3M = 5431-convention

Recipe:

Invite to 3NT: Bid 2♠ and pass 2NT.
Weak with long minor: Bid 2♠ and correct to 3m.
Strong with long minor: Bid 2♠ and bid 3♥ with ♣ and 3♠ with ♦.

Puppet Stayman is wasted I think.

[Zelandakh]

I have posted my 1NT structure often enough here. It can send each of these messages except 8, 11 and 9 (invite) plus several not on the list. If the hand types not on the list are unimportant you could probably bastardise my structure to get 1 or 2 of the remaining items. If giving up on looking for 5 card majors in Opener's hand you can send all of 1-5, 7-13. You basically have to assign an importance to each hand type and then find, or design, a system which caters to all but the least important. Basically take hrothgar's advice here - think hand types and complete systems. When you can precisely which hand types you need to showhorn into a particular bid you can usually work out pretty quickly how the resulting gadget needs to look.

[lowerline]

32519, on 2012-July-07, 00:19, said:

After a 1NT opening, I have to make choices as to which conventions to include in my partnership bidding agreements. As I cannot have them all, which should I retain and which should I give up on? E.g.
1. 2♠ initiating a minor suit signoff (as is part of SAYC)
2. 2♠ as Minor Suit Stayman
3. 2♠ as a transfer to ♣ (4-way transfers)
4. 2NT as invitational to 3NT, no 4-card major
5. 2NT as a transfer to ♦ (4-way transfers)
6. 3♣ as Puppet Stayman
7. 3♣ as a ♣ bust
8. 3♣ as invitational to 3NT, decent 6-card suit
9. 3♣ as a minor suit game invite (force?), 5-5 in the minors
10. 3♦ as a ♦ bust
11. 3♦ as invitational to 3NT, decent 6-card suit
12. 3♦ as a minor suit game force (slam interest?), 5-5 in the minors

These are just some possibilities. There are others e.g.
13. 3♥/3♠ as slam interest in the suit

Assume 2/1 as your system with plenty of gadgets. Faced with all these choices, which would be more beneficial to retain. Frequency of occurrence can play a role here.

3, 5, 6 & 12

But only 3 responses to Puppet Stayman: 3M 5crd suit & 3♦ no 5crd M

Steven

[keylime]

In my natural Precision p'ship (14-16 NT), I'm using:

2C - stayman
2D/H - xfers
2S - range ask or club xfer
2nt - diamond xfer
3C - Puppet Stayman, due to us opening lots of 5M hands 1NT when needed
3D - GF minors
3H/S - natural, RKCB in bid suit
South African Texas
4S - quant raise to 4NT with 4-4 minors
4NT like 4S but a true 4333

[GHS_K_Chow]

I play:
2S: Size Ask or Clubs
2N: Transfer to Diamonds
3C: Puppet

Sometimes I play:
2S: Size Ask or Both minors weak or Diamonds Weak
2N: Some 4441 or club bust
3C: Puppet

[Vampyr]

gwnn, on 2012-July-07, 02:43, said:

I assume you mean that
3D=no 5 card major, may have a 4 card major
3M=5 cards
3NT=does not exist
is 5-card stayman and
3D=at least one 4 card major
3M=5 cards
3NT=denies any 4-card major
is puppet?
I admit I'm not so good in googling/searching anymore but this is new to me. Is this standard nomenclature?

I think so, with Gordon's comments on responder's rebids in Puppet also part of it.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2012-July-13, 00:20, said:

I think so, with Gordon's comments on responder's rebids in Puppet also part of it.

This is incorrect. The original Puppet Stayman after a 1NT opening is precisely what you are describing as 5 card Stayman. However, it is a good example of why one should not use convention names in describing bids. Here is a short wiki write-up.