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1:4:8:V - What do you open?

Poll: x, A8xx, AT987xxx, void (all red, dealer) (44 member(s) have cast votes)

If and what do you open?

  1. 1D (25 votes [56.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 56.82%

  2. 3D (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 4D (3 votes [6.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.82%

  4. 5D (7 votes [15.91%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.91%

  5. Pass and plan to bid on any auction (2 votes [4.55%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  6. Pass and plan to bid on a reasonable auction (5 votes [11.36%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.36%

  7. Other (please comment) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Pass and see what happens (2 votes [4.55%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

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#1 User is offline   Yu18772 

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Posted 2012-July-10, 22:30

Hi
I saw this hand on bbo today while kibitzing, and everyone was having a different opinion. Thought it is an interesting one.
Posted ImageYu
Yehudit Hasin

"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
1

#2 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-July-10, 22:37

I would open 5D.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#3 User is offline   Yu18772 

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Posted 2012-July-10, 22:43

View Postthe hog, on 2012-July-10, 22:37, said:

I would open 5D.


Added as an option, thanks
Posted ImageYu
Yehudit Hasin

"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
0

#4 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-July-10, 23:59

5 is terrible imo - you've got aces so, most importantly, you're not scared of opps playing it, your diamonds are dodgy and you've got axxx hearts on the side.

it's not difficult to imagine going off in 5 with 7 gin.

i open 1.
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#5 User is offline   akhare 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 00:48

I am torn between 1 and 4. The latter seems wrong given the two Aces and the void, but it could work out very well at the table...
foobar on BBO
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#6 User is offline   the_clown 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 02:03

I would open 5 too. Un 8 card suit headed by the Ace surely has to be trumps.

If I start with 1 and it is our hand, it is very likely that they will often preempt and I will be left guessing anyway whether to push for slam. Not to mension that they will often find their cheap sacrifice.

If it is their hand (not likely), they will have a hard time finding their fit at the 5. level.

Un upside is that they will have absolutely no idea what to lead or which is my second suit.
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#7 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 02:51

1

5 would not even cross my mind to be honest.

Same goes for 2 or 3 or 4 bids for me, but at least they are recoverable if lucky.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#8 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 02:52

I think this is clear cut 1

I have quite defensive hand with those 2 aces and I don't see necessity to jump somewhere. If partner has some number of and short I really don't want to be in . 4 might be another possible contract if partner has good-quality 6 card suit.

It would be different if my suit was KJTxxxxx as that would have far less defensive value, but doesn't play that bad if partner is short opposite.
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..." --sathyab
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#9 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 04:49

Well you have 8 PTs so you could try opening it a Benji/SEF 2 or a reverse Benji 2...

I always thought I was quite loose with my preempts but this really looks like a 1 opening to me. It is not hard to see where an opening preempt might gain, also not hard to see where it might lose. Here the hand has just too many flaws; none of them individually would be enough to stop me preempting but taken together I would prefer not to when there is a perfectly good alternative available.
(-: Zel :-)
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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 19:01

1D would not enter my mind with this.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#11 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 20:44

I would bid 4. These sorts of pressure bids have worked very well for me in the past. Bidding five seems like too much -- the opponents often double 5m openings and given my suit quality (not so hot) and defense (two aces) they're unlikely to be wrong. I'd rather they make their decisions over 4 where double is takeout and they are more likely to play the hand and go down!

I've not found that opening 1 works very well on hands like this one. Aside from giving the opponents space to communicate, there are a lot of sequences where I will not have a satisfactory rebid and will have to take a big guess later in the auction. I'd rather take my guesses early in cases like this where waiting seems unlikely to help me much (but could help opponents a lot).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#12 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 22:18

I've thought about swapping hands that normally bid 5 or 5 with their counterparts at the 4-level, due to twice pre-empting at the 5-level, hitting partner with huge hands, and ending up at the 6-level down 1 (both times I would have raised to 6 if I had the huge hand). This hand is difficult, I think I'll bid 4 and hope I am right.
"It's not enough to win the tricks that belong to you. Try also for some that belong to the opponents."

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."

"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."

-Alfred Sheinwold
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#13 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 10:25

The problem for me in opening 1 is that partner will expect better than just 1 probable trick in defence, and may double them in 5 after I bid 5 over their 4. We are then in disaster scenario. So I open 4. I don't think it good enough for 5.
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#14 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 15:15

Aces make for good (high level) defense and that fact alone makes any
radical distribution hand holding those 2 aces a poor prospect for an
opening high level preempt and an even worse prospect when holding
a 4 card major (Axxx) as a second suit. While you cannot predict how the
future bidding will go (ie a preempt will work sometimes) the odds of
success of finding the best contract for your side lie with starting as low
as possible.
1

#15 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 19:56

What MrAce and Gszes said...
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
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Steve Moese
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#16 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 20:39

all red with a 7 trick hand looks like 4d to me.

if prd thinks he has 4 tricks and an entry he can raise to 5.
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#17 User is offline   ColdCrayon 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 21:36

stupid back-button.
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#18 User is offline   ColdCrayon 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 21:44

I was taught that 5-bids and greater are not preemptive at all, but declarations that you believe you can make the bid with your hand alone. It's not quite strong enough for that.

With two aces in the long suits and crazy distributional strength, it's a 1-bid to me. If my partner likes a higher hard-points to distributional strength ratio, then I make it a 2-bid, but you've got too many defensive tricks for 3 and 4, and if your partner has 4 hearts, then diamonds might not even be your best trump suit.

I'd be tempted to bid 2, especially if you play trent-2s, or have an understanding that 2-bids are constructive bids and not totally preemptive, but the four-card major makes that iffy.

If you play Namyats, then 3NT is another possibility.
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#19 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 23:45

View PostColdCrayon, on 2012-July-12, 21:44, said:

I was taught that 5-bids and greater are not preemptive at all, but declarations that you believe you can make the bid with your hand alone. It's not quite strong enough for that.

With two aces in the long suits and crazy distributional strength, it's a 1-bid to me. If my partner likes a higher hard-points to distributional strength ratio, then I make it a 2-bid, but you've got too many defensive tricks for 3 and 4, and if your partner has 4 hearts, then diamonds might not even be your best trump suit.

I'd be tempted to bid 2, especially if you play trent-2s, or have an understanding that 2-bids are constructive bids and not totally preemptive, but the four-card major makes that iffy.

If you play Namyats, then 3NT is another possibility.


So you would not open 5D green vs red on
xx
xx
KQJTxxxxx

?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#20 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-July-13, 01:03

View PostSteveMoe, on 2012-July-12, 19:56, said:

What MrAce and Gszes said...

Which parts of the posts from wclass and myself were you disagreeing with? It seems all 4 of us were in broad agreement.
(-: Zel :-)
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