[32519]

Paul Thurston’s 2/1 Guide includes this sentence regarding Minor Suit Openings:
Over a 1♦ opening, 2♣ is natural, 100% game forcing, 4+ ♣, 12+ HCP. May have 4-card major if longer ♣.

It also contains this sentence:
Over a 1♦ opening, 2NT = 10-12 HCP, no 4-card major or 5-card ♦ suit but otherwise balanced or at least semi-balanced, invitational.

Some questions:
1. What does one respond with exactly 12 HCP and exactly 4 ♣ and 4 of either major? Or do you still initiate a 2/1 GF auction intending to signoff in 3NT if no fit in the majors can be found?
2. What about exactly 12 HCP and no 4-card major? According to his guide this would now become a 2NT response, invitational (see above).
3. If point 2 is accurate, then I would expect a minimum of 13 HCP for a 2/1 response and no 4-card major? Would that be reasonable?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

If I definitely have a GF hand with a 4 card ♣ suit and 4 card Major, I'll show the GF immediately with a 2C Response ( not denying a 4 card Major ). Does your source mention that Opener's 1st priority is to rebid 2D with 5+ cards ? (... not denying a 4 card Major ) . If Opener bids 2H/2S instead, it shows 4 cards M and less than 5 cards ♦ .
Even after a 2D rebid, you still have the rest of the 2-level to uncover a 4-4 Major fit if it exists.

In this day and age of opening "all elevens" ( and sometimes less ), I'm wary of making a GF w/12 ( heck even 13 may not be enough for game ), but I'd still bid 2NT w/12 and 3NT w/ good 13 .

[Vampyr]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-July-14, 07:56, said:

If I definitely have a GF hand with a 4 card ♣ suit and 4 card Major, I'll show the GF immediately with a 2C Response ( not denying a 4 card Major ).

I don't play 2/1 GF, but this just seems wrong. Bid your 4-card suits up the line. Anyway your source said to bypass a 4-card major with longer clubs, so why are you asking about doing something different?

[RunemPard]

Yes...obviously with 4 in the major and 4 clubs you would show the major first.

As far as the 12 count balanced invite goes...that depends on the hand?

[fromageGB]

1. Bid the major. Do this whatever the strength unless you have some specialised bid for strong hands.
2. 12 and no 4 card major is an immediate 2NT playing this way.
3. Yes. I would expect 13+

Perhaps better is 11/12 for the invitational 2NT, as a 3 point range is too wide for opener to make a unilateral decision. 10 hcp then bids 1NT.

Many expand the idea to include 2♣ being any hand without a 4 card major that is invitational or better. This can have either minor the longer. This is useful if you don't want to play inverted minors, or if you want the 2NT bid for something else. If not just invitational, you of course make a game or forcing bid later.

[FrancesHinden]

32519, on 2012-July-14, 07:15, said:

Paul Thurston’s 2/1 Guide includes this sentence regarding Minor Suit Openings:
Over a 1♦ opening, 2♣ is natural, 100% game forcing, 4+ ♣, 12+ HCP. May have 4-card major if longer ♣.

It also contains this sentence:
Over a 1♦ opening, 2NT = 10-12 HCP, no 4-card major or 5-card ♦ suit but otherwise balanced or at least semi-balanced, invitational.

Some questions:
1. What does one respond with exactly 12 HCP and exactly 4 ♣ and 4 of either major? Or do you still initiate a 2/1 GF auction intending to signoff in 3NT if no fit in the majors can be found?
2. What about exactly 12 HCP and no 4-card major? According to his guide this would now become a 2NT response, invitational (see above).
3. If point 2 is accurate, then I would expect a minimum of 13 HCP for a 2/1 response and no 4-card major? Would that be reasonable?

The answers to your questions are in the two sentences you have already quoted.

1. "2♣ may have a 4-card major if longer clubs" Therefore, with 4-4 in clubs and a major you respond in the major
2. No. It is possible to have an unbalanced hand without a 4-card major. You bid a game forcing 2♣ with, say, Ax x Kxx A109xxxx
2/3 It's shocking that there's an overlap between an invitational 2NT bid and a game forcing 2♣ bid, isn't it? The key is that not all 12-point hands are equal.

This is a 12-point game force which is 'balanced or semi-balanced with no 4-card major' but is an obvious 2C response:

A109
xx
A10x
KJ109x

...and here is a 12-point 2NT response:
Qxx
QJx
KJx
Kxxx

[the hog]

If I definitely have a GF hand with a 4 card ♣ suit and 4 card Major, I'llbid th 4 card Major first of course. With longer Cs I will bid 2C.

[32519]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-July-14, 07:56, said:

If I definitely have a GF hand with a 4 card ♣ suit and 4 card Major, I'll show the GF immediately with a 2C Response ( not denying a 4 card Major ).

Does your source mention that Opener's 1st priority is to rebid 2D with 5+ cards ? (... not denying a 4 card Major ) .
Reply: Yes it does. 2♦ = 5+♦, usually a 12-14 HCP hand.

If Opener bids 2H/2S instead, it shows 4 cards M and less than 5 cards ♦ .
Reply: The guide I have says 2♥/2♠ = Reverse bid, 16+ HCP, 4+ cards in the major. It then has an example of an exception 4441 hand with only 15 HCP. [This was an eye opener to see how the 4441 hand was accommodated in 2/1. These forums have plenty of posts with others recommending to treat the 4441 hand as balanced. Paul Thurston seems to differ. I’m really hoping this will fire up a heated debate as to what others think of Paul’s treatment of the 4441 hand].

Even after a 2D rebid, you still have the rest of the 2-level to uncover a 4-4 Major fit if it exists.
Reply: Not according to Paul. 2M = 16+ HCP, reverse bid. 2NT = 12-14 HCP, balanced, usually with both majors stopped OR 18-19 HCP balanced.
Now we seem to have a problem. There is no mention on how to uncover any possible 4-4 major suit fit. My assumption is that the responsibility to do so falls onto responder. (S)/he has already initiated a GF auction. With both hands of similar strength it is probably of little concern which one becomes declarer. Over 2NT, presumably responder bids a 4-card major which gets lifted to 4M with a fit, 4oM with no fit or 3NT without the other major. Would this be a reasonable interpretation?

In this day and age of opening "all elevens" ( and sometimes less ), I'm wary of making a GF w/12 ( heck even 13 may not be enough for game ), but I'd still bid 2NT w/12 and 3NT w/ good 13 .
Reply: Precision opens all 11 counts. 2/1 opens all 12 counts. SAYC opens all 13 counts.

[32519]

Vampyr, on 2012-July-14, 10:42, said:

I don't play 2/1 GF, but this just seems wrong. Bid your 4-card suits up the line. Anyway your source said to bypass a 4-card major with longer clubs, so why are you asking about doing something different?

The source I have says this is ok. The bid is forcing for 1 round.

I was asking about equal length. Do you still initiate a 2/1 GF auction?

[32519]

fromageGB, on 2012-July-14, 11:23, said:

Perhaps better is 11/12 for the invitational 2NT, as a 3 point range is too wide for opener to make a unilateral decision. 10 hcp then bids 1NT.

+1 for this.

11-12 HCP without a 4-card major for the invitational hand makes more sense. The 10 HCP hand without a 4-card major goes through 1NT. Opener is better placed to judge where the hand belongs now.

[rhm]

32519, on 2012-July-14, 07:15, said:

Paul Thurston’s 2/1 Guide includes this sentence regarding Minor Suit Openings:
Over a 1♦ opening, 2♣ is natural, 100% game forcing, 4+ ♣, 12+ HCP. May have 4-card major if longer ♣.

It also contains this sentence:
Over a 1♦ opening, 2NT = 10-12 HCP, no 4-card major or 5-card ♦ suit but otherwise balanced or at least semi-balanced, invitational.

The logic of Paul Thurston is clear, but of course you need not agree with him.

Quote

1. What does one respond with exactly 12 HCP and exactly 4 ♣ and 4 of either major? Or do you still initiate a 2/1 GF auction intending to signoff in 3NT if no fit in the majors can be found?

According to Paul Thurston you bid your major, very revolutionary, I dare say. If you play XYZ or some similar methods you can afterwards still decide whether to invite or force to game.

Quote

2. What about exactly 1r2 HCP and no 4-card major? According to his guide this would now become a 2NT response, invitational (see above).

No you have a choice between 2NT and 2♣. HCP are not everything. Not all balanced 12 HCP hands are created equal. Scoring and colors might also influence your decision.

Quote

3. If point 2 is accurate, then I would expect a minimum of 13 HCP for a 2/1 response and no 4-card major? Would that be reasonable?

Reasonable maybe, but not what Thurston says above. He never claimed you have to bid 2NT with 12 HCP. It is an option, no more. With a good six card club suit and 12 HCP and no 4 card major (2236) what do you suggest?

Rainer Herrmann

[Vampyr]

32519, on 2012-July-14, 23:56, said:

I was asking about equal length. Do you still initiate a 2/1 GF auction?

Most if not all of the posters in this thread have said that with 4-4 you should not bypass your major. Are you looking for more answers that agree with your idea that you should?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

@ 32519

Looks like I don't agree with Paul Thurston.

1D - 2C! (2/1 GF ... let's assume at least 5 cards )
2D - 2H/2S are NOT considered reverses as far as strength is concerned .

I agree with you... there would be a problem if Responder could not show his 4 card Major unless reverse strength.

[nigel_k]

If you have a hand such as AQxx xxx Qx KQxx there is a strong case for responding 2♣ to 1♦ rather than 1♠. You are in much better shape after 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♠ than after 1♦-1♠-2♦-3♣.

In any case I much prefer the 2♣ response to 1♦ to be a one round force only. Having to leap to 2NT or 3♣ with invitational strength doesn't appeal to me and the gain from the 2/1 response being GF is less than when responding to a major.

[rhm]

nigel_k, on 2012-July-15, 18:12, said:

In any case I much prefer the 2♣ response to 1♦ to be a one round force only. Having to leap to 2NT or 3♣ with invitational strength doesn't appeal to me and the gain from the 2/1 response being GF is less than when responding to a major.

When 1♦/2♣ can be invitational, you have big problems sorting out slam invitational minor suit oriented hands from game invitational ones.
How do you differentiate a strong hand with a re-biddable club suit from one which is only game invitational?
It is almost the rule rather than the exception at all forms of scoring that good minor suit slams are played in notrump, either in 3NT or in 6NT going down.
Martel-Stansby have devised a little known convention, admittedly in a weak notrump context, whereby 1♦-2♥ is used to show an invitational hand without a 4 card major and unsuited for an inverted diamond raise.
It is quite useful when playing 1♦/2♣ as game forcing without exception.

Rainer Herrmann

[the hog]

nigel_k, on 2012-July-15, 18:12, said:

If you have a hand such as AQxx xxx Qx KQxx there is a strong case for responding 2♣ to 1♦ rather than 1♠. You are in much better shape after 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♠ than after 1♦-1♠-2♦-3♣.

snipped

Much better shape? Now let me see, you have promised 5C and 4S in an unbalanced hand in the first sequence, and 4+S and 4+C in a possible balanced hand in the second sequence. Pray tell why is your lie putting you in better shape?

[fromageGB]

the hog, on 2012-July-16, 03:56, said:

Much better shape? Now let me see, you have promised 5C and 4S in an unbalanced hand in the first sequence, and 4+S and 4+C in a possible balanced hand in the second sequence. Pray tell why is your lie putting you in better shape?

Obviously it is not a lie. Bidding 2♣ first in this style does not guarantee 5. When opener rebids 2NT, now responder's 3♣ guarantees 5 and is GF (even if 2♣ was not initially GF).

[nigel_k]

nigel_k, on 2012-July-15, 18:12, said:

If you have a hand such as AQxx xxx Qx KQxx there is a strong case for responding 2♣ to 1♦ rather than 1♠. You are in much better shape after 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♠ than after 1♦-1♠-2♦-3♣.

the hog, on 2012-July-16, 03:56, said:

Much better shape? Now let me see, you have promised 5C and 4S in an unbalanced hand in the first sequence, and 4+S and 4+C in a possible balanced hand in the second sequence. Pray tell why is your lie putting you in better shape?

i) The second sequence doesn't really show clubs at all because you have few forcing bids. All partner really knows is that you have a good hand without four hearts.

ii) You don't want to invite preference to a four card major at the three level , e.g. xxx Kx AJTxxx Ax opposite AQxx xxx Qx KQxx will struggle to reach 3NT from the right side after starting with 1♦-1♠-2♦-3♣.

iii) In the first auction, partner is unlikely to insist on clubs after failing to raise them initially so the fact you have four rather than five is not such an issue.