[kwic]

Hi, I am a good french player (playing French system) and want to learn a bit more about the SAYC.
I've seen many things but I need some more explanations :
opening 1♥, responder 2♣
What should be the opener rebid with a balanced hand ?

So far, I read on internet :

13-16 (it was not sait but I guess they were talking about HCP) : 2NT (By the way, I guess it's 12 - 16 HCP)
19-21 22 : 3NT

But with 17 - 18 :

Jump raise or jump rebid of opener’s suit;

Reverse in a new suit, i.e., bid a new suit at the two level which is higher ranking than the opening suit;

Non-reverse bid in a new suit (this has the wide range of 13–18 points).

Does it mean we should raise with only 5 cards ?

For example , you have :

♠ AQ643
♥ AK3
♦ KJ3
♣ 32

and the auctions are : 1♠ 2♣, what now ?

Thank you

[Hanoi5]

If an opening bid is made with 12-20 HCP's I prefer to have 3 ranges: 12-14, 15-17 and 18-20. So if you have a bid for 12-14/18-20 in NT then 15-17 has to 'lie' by either rebidding the Major or bidding a minor (diamond in this case); an interesting question would be, why didn't you open 1NT with 15-17 balanced? (probably because the Major was too strong, then rebidding it won't be much of a lie)

And this is probably a topic for the Natural Bidding Discussion Forum.

[kwic]

 Hanoi5, on 2012-July-11, 06:19, said:

If an opening bid is made with 12-20 HCP's I prefer to have 3 ranges: 12-14, 15-17 and 18-20. So if you have a bid for 12-14/18-20 in NT then 15-17 has to 'lie' by either rebidding the Major or bidding a minor (diamond in this case); an interesting question would be, why didn't you open 1NT with 15-17 balanced? (probably because the Major was too strong, then rebidding it won't be much of a lie)

And this is probably a topic for the Natural Bidding Discussion Forum.

Hi Hanoi, in the French system we have 3 ranges : 12-14, 15-17, 18-19. 2NT is for 15-17 and we have to repeat de suit when in 12-14.
But in the SAYC, as far as I could see on many websites, they say : 2NT 13-16, 2NT 19-21, and quite nothing acceptable with a balanced hand about the 17-18.
That's I wanted expert to tell me how they bid in that case. Anyway, I really think that 12-16 is way too large for 2NT. Should be 12-14.
Well I am not an expert in the SAYC system, that's why I wanted expert to tell me how they bid.

[gszes]

 kwic, on 2012-July-11, 10:31, said:

Hi Hanoi, in the French system we have 3 ranges : 12-14, 15-17, 18-19. 2NT is for 15-17 and we have to repeat de suit when in 12-14.
But in the SAYC, as far as I could see on many websites, they say : 2NT 13-16, 2NT 19-21, and quite nothing acceptable with a balanced hand about the 17-18.
That's I wanted expert to tell me how they bid in that case. Anyway, I really think that 12-16 is way too large for 2NT. Should be 12-14.
Well I am not an expert in the SAYC system, that's why I wanted expert to tell me how they bid.

the 12-15 range is meant to cover a wide variety of hands for ex let say tiy hold after 1s 2c

KJ432
AKQ
Jxxx
K

this is an example of a 17 count that would prefer a 2n rebid it des not mean all 17 count
should do this merely the worst ones (ie treat this hand as if it were in the 12 -15 range).

the ranges are appoximations of value. Most SAYC players will bid 2C with less
than invitational strength intending to rebid 3c. This means we need more power if we are
to consider bidding 3n. Most SAYC players use 20-21 as 2n so the practical ranges are
actually 12-15 16-17 18-19. There is a lot of debate as to when to open 1M with say 16
count vs 1N. The 16-17 range are the :nebulous: ones---at MP look to downgrade
but at IMPS (in order to avoid missing games) look to upgrade because there is no room to
do much exploration.

One can also upgrade

AT9xx
AJT
AJT
JT

Here is a superb 15 count that should be treated as worth close to 18 and would rebid 3n

[Stephen Tu]

 kwic, on 2012-July-11, 10:31, said:

Hi Hanoi, in the French system we have 3 ranges : 12-14, 15-17, 18-19. 2NT is for 15-17 and we have to repeat de suit when in 12-14.
But in the SAYC, as far as I could see on many websites, they say : 2NT 13-16, 2NT 19-21, and quite nothing acceptable with a balanced hand about the 17-18.
That's I wanted expert to tell me how they bid in that case. Anyway, I really think that 12-16 is way too large for 2NT. Should be 12-14.
Well I am not an expert in the SAYC system, that's why I wanted expert to tell me how they bid.

kwic: don't expect much logic in SAYC system. The people who put it together just threw a bunch of semi-popular treatments together without much thought of how everything meshes together. It was constructed for simplicity, not efficacy. It make no sense for 2nt rebid to include min 12-13 pt hands when the 2nt rebid is forcing; it basically force you into 3nt with 12 opposite 11. You are much better off just rebidding in French fashion, rebid major with min, even if partner doesn't know you are doing this you will be OK, this allow you to pass partner's nf 2nt rebid. If you are playing with random pickup, don't be surprised if 1M-2c-2nt-pass, even if they claim to play SAYC; many don't know that SAYC says this is forcing, and many don't know that SAYC is a specific variant of "SA". A lot of people erroneously think SAYC and SA are synonyms, instead of one being a specific type of the other. With 15-17 5cM you may want to just open 1nt to avoid getting passed out on such a sequence.

If you are forming good regular partnership with American expert, play 2/1 GF, not SAYC, then it is easier to play 2nt rebid as 12-(14/15)/18-19, since don't have to worry about trying to stop in 2nt opposite 11 count. Experts almost never play SAYC in regular partnership, only in individuals online. In regular partnership they may play souped-up SA but will fix this sequence to some more logical rebid strategy than the SAYC booklet.

[kwic]

 Stephen Tu, on 2012-July-12, 10:00, said:

kwic: don't expect much logic in SAYC system. The people who put it together just threw a bunch of semi-popular treatments together without much thought of how everything meshes together. It was constructed for simplicity, not efficacy. It make no sense for 2nt rebid to include min 12-13 pt hands when the 2nt rebid is forcing; it basically force you into 3nt with 12 opposite 11. You are much better off just rebidding in French fashion, rebid major with min, even if partner doesn't know you are doing this you will be OK, this allow you to pass partner's nf 2nt rebid. If you are playing with random pickup, don't be surprised if 1M-2c-2nt-pass, even if they claim to play SAYC; many don't know that SAYC says this is forcing, and many don't know that SAYC is a specific variant of "SA". A lot of people erroneously think SAYC and SA are synonyms, instead of one being a specific type of the other. With 15-17 5cM you may want to just open 1nt to avoid getting passed out on such a sequence.

If you are forming good regular partnership with American expert, play 2/1 GF, not SAYC, then it is easier to play 2nt rebid as 12-(14/15)/18-19, since don't have to worry about trying to stop in 2nt opposite 11 count. Experts almost never play SAYC in regular partnership, only in individuals online. In regular partnership they may play souped-up SA but will fix this sequence to some more logical rebid strategy than the SAYC booklet.

Hi Stephen, thanks for your answer. Actually, I have no membership with any american expert. I am a french bridge teacher and I give lessons to a couple of english beginners playing the american system. So I have to learn the difference between the french system and the american system. It's very difficult to find informations on the american system on internet. In particular with these auctions. I want to teach them the "most often played" system but it's hard to find out which one it is...
Well, I guess I will teach them to play 1♠-2♣-2NT 12-14H or 18-19H and 1♠-2♣-3NT 15-17H

[SteveMoe]

Richard Pavlicek has made lots of Standard American teaching material and quizzes available on his website. While his assumptions are somewhat dated (13 HCP minimum opener instead of 12) you can make those adjustments. I hope this gives you access to what you need!

http://www.rpbridge.net/index.htm

You can also look at the ACBL club series at http://www.acbl.org/.../materials.html

[osocanoso]

Hi Kwic,

There is an interesting rule that helps solve the problem of what to do after a 2/1 bid playing SAYC. It is something I read years ago written I think by Eddie Kantor.

We all know that with 25 or 26 points the two hands combined will make 3 nt most of the time. Generally speaking, a change of 3 HCP moves the potential trick taking power of the combined hands one level, so with about 28 you can make 4 nt and with 22 you can make 2 nt. These values do not take distribution into account.

A 2/1 response in SAYC promises 10 points. This means that the combined hands will be safe at least as far as 2 nt, and a 2/1 bid should be played as forcing to 2 nt. I call this the 22=2nt rule.

Since the partnership is forced to 2 nt, opener's rebids below that level are forcing but do not show extra values. Any bid above 2nt is forcing to game unless it is a repeat of a suit already bid or a raise, in which case it is invitational.

Playing this way, you can distinguish all of your point ranges. Here are the continuations with various point ranges:

2 NT: 12-14
3 NT: 15-17
2 diamonds or hearts followed by jump to 3 NT: 18-19

With 20-21 balanced or semibalanced most players open 2 nt and use puppet (marionette) stayman to find opener's five card major.

This matrix is easy to remember and has another advantage: reverses are off after a 2/1. It solves the following problem:

You open one diamond and partner bids 2 clubs. You have a four card major you would like to show, but in your system a reverse shows extra values. However, since two clubs is forcing to 2 nt, you can now bid your four card major without showing extra values. Very useful. It also solves a bidding problem for responder:

When partner opens one heart and you have four spades and a five card minor with 10 points, you have to choose between bidding your four card suit at the one level or the five card suit at the two level. Either choice has it's advantages and disadvantages, especially playing with a new partner. I see players bid the four card suit a lot because they are afraid of losing the major suit fit.

Playing 22=2nt that problem goes away, because you can bid two of your minor and after opener's rebid you can bid two spades without showing extra values and stop in 2 nt if that's right.

Stephen Tu is absolutely correct when he says that SAYC is not a coherent system. It was developed by the American Contract Bridge League so that unfamiliar partnerships could play at tournaments with minimal discussion, so it employs elements that are well known and common but not necessarily compatible with each other.

[rhm]

 SteveMoe, on 2012-July-12, 19:43, said:

Richard Pavlicek has made lots of Standard American teaching material and quizzes available on his website. While his assumptions are somewhat dated (13 HCP minimum opener instead of 12) you can make those adjustments. I hope this gives you access to what you need!

http://www.rpbridge.net/index.htm

You can also look at the ACBL club series at http://www.acbl.org/.../materials.html

In the pavlicek material: Experienced players often lower these ranges to 12-14, 15-17, 18-19 and 20-22, respectively. The point-count requirement for responses, however, does not change — the bottom line is that you sometimes get to a more aggressive contract; hence you need to play the cards well.

Pavlicek never advocated 13 HCP as opening requirements but 13 total points, which includes distributional points plus adding a point for a preponderance of aces and tens.


Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

Hello osocanoso and welcome to the BBO forums. Your proposed solution is all fine and dandy, and perhaps what most do in practise, but not SAYC. A 2/1 response promises a rebid so Opener's 2NT is forcing. An alternative scheme that also works is to rebid 2 or your suit wirh 12-14, 2NT with 15-17 and 3NT with 18-19. An additional advantage of this for the OP is that it will be familiar from French methods.

[Fluffy]

In some versions of SAYC they open 1NT with 15-17 so they don't have that range.

[Zelandakh]

 Fluffy, on 2014-September-04, 06:16, said:

In some versions of SAYC they open 1NT with 15-17 so they don't have that range.

In the French methods to which I was referring a 1NT opening is not made with a 5 card major. My guess is that this was also not so common in America back when SAYC was created.