[FM75]

The OP was about "investing" in one the two options. So far their has been no discussion about whether it was an investment or an expense.

If you don't know the difference, an investment is supposed to be returned over time with a profit. An expense is something that reduces revenues. Whether the OP really was using the term investment correctly is not clear. Did the OP really just want to hear preferences of players for one option versus the other, or the preferences of club owners, or was he interested in the return on the investment, or the effect of the expense?

Might be nice to clarify.

[FrancesHinden]

shevek, on 2012-July-25, 08:19, said:

Finally Swedish bridgescorers are the ones with touch screens. I like these & they give the best feedback, including leads at other tables, percentages for all scores on a board, not just yours. Can even display hand records & deep finesse analysis.

This strikes me as bad, not good. You have a limited amount of time to play two or three hands. I want to spend that time playing bridge, not waiting while the opponents have a 5-minute discussion about the possible percentages on a board, what Jenny led at table 6 and how 6NT could be made double-dummy. That debate is for after the event. It's bad enough when you can see all the other scores and the percentage, as on current bridgemates.

[paulg]

It turns out that our club committee dislikes holding too much money in the bank and has purchased Bridgemate IIs for the start of new season (in September). As there is only one tournament player on the committee it is an indication that this is technology that the 'average' club player is interesting in.

[barmar]

FM75, on 2012-July-26, 20:48, said:

The OP was about "investing" in one the two options. So far their has been no discussion about whether it was an investment or an expense.

Here's the dictionary definition that I suspect matches his intent:

Quote

[informal] buy (something) whose usefulness will repay the cost.

It's possible that it could be considered a financial investment -- if it increases attendance, you'll eventually recoup the purchase cost.

[shevek]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-July-26, 23:20, said:

This strikes me as bad, not good. You have a limited amount of time to play two or three hands. I want to spend that time playing bridge, not waiting while the opponents have a 5-minute discussion about the possible percentages on a board, what Jenny led at table 6 and how 6NT could be made double-dummy. That debate is for after the event. It's bad enough when you can see all the other scores and the percentage, as on current bridgemates.

To fully justify the switch, the aim should be to provide all the data they currently get from travellers, which - in most cases - includes the hand record and card led. Otherwise, some players will leap at the excuse to say travellers were better.

Admittedly, showing the hand record is an option which we mostly have turned off. Can't be bad to have it.
Good for keeping track of fouled boards. Likewise the director at the computer gets to see the hand record next to the scores as they come in, making it easier to spot errors.

[blackshoe]

IMO players should be given exactly zero incentives to discuss boards they've played until after the session is over.

[nige1]

Most clubs that buy a dealing-machine regard it as an asset that attracts and keeps members. IMO, bridge-mates are a more questionable "investment". I'm surprised that they haven't already been replaced by cell-phones with an appropriate "app".

[barmar]

shevek, on 2012-July-27, 18:00, said:

To fully justify the switch, the aim should be to provide all the data they currently get from travellers, which - in most cases - includes the hand record and card led. Otherwise, some players will leap at the excuse to say travellers were better.

Not around here they don't. Travelers in the ACBL generally just have the contract, results, and pair numbers. Hand records are given out at the end of the game.

The interesting thing is that the travelers still have columns for entering the matchpoints, even though matchpointing by hand is practically a forgotten art (does the Club Director test still ask for this?).

[blackshoe]

I don't know if the Club Director test asks for matchpointing by hand, but it should. What do you do if the computer crashes? Give up?

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2012-July-28, 12:46, said:

I don't know if the Club Director test asks for matchpointing by hand, but it should. What do you do if the computer crashes? Give up?

You take the travelers home, and enter everything when you get it fixed.

I still remember how to matchpoint by hand (although I'd have to think a little about factoring), but we no longer have any of those big score sheets where you enter all the matchpoints and add them up.

[inquiry]

Dealing machine. Hands down.

In the old days, I could remember every hand (and most key spots) after a session until I had time to get a notepad and write them down. Now, I am lucky if I can remember one or two hands at best.

[mike777]

as I said many posts ago...


1) people love free stuff that is not the important question.
2) the important question is what is your return after expenses and your investment of capital, time...etc?

efficient use of capital....guys...is a good thing...not an evil thing that so many posters assume.


So many posters mainly say ....customers love free or really cheap stuff...ya and so ?


even if you are nonprofit dont you want to use your very very limited capital in the very most efficient way?

so many of these posts just ignore this.

[Vampyr]

mike777, on 2012-July-28, 23:00, said:

so many of these posts just ignore this.

No, I suspect that people don't know what you are talking about.

[mike777]

Vampyr, on 2012-July-29, 00:54, said:

No, I suspect that people don't know what you are talking about.

cap. at its essence says use your limited, very limited capital in the most effective way.



At the edges...margins......we debate......how that is not 100% PERFECT
--



but you make an excellent point

[barmar]

I doubt that most bridge clubs are intended to be big money makers. Many bridge clubs in the US are member-owned, not-for-profit organizations. Others are just a tiny part of a retirement community. And even the independent clubs are not usually going for the big bucks. They're run by bridge enthusiasts for the benefit of the community. As long as they don't lose money, they're succeeding.

If you have $1,000 to spend, and you can spend it on either duplimate or bridgemate, you don't need to do a financial analysis. You just try to decide which one will make the club more enjoyable.

[mike777]

barmar, on 2012-July-29, 01:42, said:

I doubt that most bridge clubs are intended to be big money makers. Many bridge clubs in the US are member-owned, not-for-profit organizations. Others are just a tiny part of a retirement community. And even the independent clubs are not usually going for the big bucks. They're run by bridge enthusiasts for the benefit of the community. As long as they don't lose money, they're succeeding.

If you have $1,000 to spend, and you can spend it on either duplimate or bridgemate, you don't need to do a financial analysis. You just try to decide which one will make the club more enjoyable.

NO

Is this your club?

do you just spend a random, as you say, bucks or are you just insanely rich: then please make your local club 100% free


again everyone loves free stuff....do you just want your club to hve free stuff?

---


Let me put this another way.......are you are owner or part owner of a club?


If yes.....do you work for 100% free? or do want to make money in 2014 or 2015? I mean even one euro?


or do you work for ego.so people think you are a great charity guy?

---





My only point is return:.......If you think buying this stuff is ok...great....I am with you all the way...

[barmar]

I'm a member of a non-profit, membership-run club, that's my only direct experience. We have one game a week, with 8-10 tables, and charge $2 for students and $5 for non-students. And we have a Duplimate (the club manager bought it a few years ago, and the club is paying him back over time). On the other hand, we don't spend money on refreshments like most clubs do.

P.S. What's with all the extra blank lines in your messages? They're as annoying as Lurpoa's ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ stuff.

[mike777]

barmar, on 2012-July-29, 02:03, said:

I'm a member of a non-profit, membership-run club, that's my only direct experience. We have one game a week, with 8-10 tables, and charge $2 for students and $5 for non-students. And we have a Duplimate (the club manager bought it a few years ago, and the club is paying him back over time). On the other hand, we don't spend money on refreshments like most clubs do.

P.S. What's with all the extra blank lines in your messages? They're as annoying as Lurpoa's ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ stuff.

fwiw what are your expenses?
what are your revenues?

I assume you have a mort
gage and ins and a zillion local fees ontop ot thatI assume you have a zillion ongoing fees just to mow the lawn

------------------


In any event barmar if you think the cost is worth the return just say so but you dont..

I dont mean to be disrespectful........ if your return is ok....ok but please just say so........

[barmar]

mike777, on 2012-July-29, 02:06, said:

fwiw what are your expenses?
what are your revenues?

I assume you have a mortgage and ins and a zillion local fees ontop ot thatI assume you have a zillion ongoing fees just to mow the lawn

Yes, I do. What do my personal expenses have to do with this? The bridge club I belong to doesn't have a mortgage, insurance, or a lawn. The club doesn't spend much for the playing space -- we're nominally associated with the MIT Math Department, and that allows us to use classrooms for a very low fee (we used to be a student organization, but we had trouble ensuring that a sufficient percentage of the club was students).

I've seen the club's financial reports. Finances of a bridge club seem pretty simple. Income and expenses are very predictable, assuming your table count is fairly consistent. It's then easy to see how much spare cash the club has, and decide whether you want to spend it on some new gadget.

[barmar]

mike777, on 2012-July-29, 02:06, said:

In any event barmar if you think the cost is worth the return just say so but you dont..

The "return" is in how much fun the players have. How do you put a $ value on that?

As you said, you have to decide how to spend your limited capital budget. Well, what else is a bridge club going to spend it on? The OP's situation was that they have enough money for either a duplicating machine or wireless scoring devices, but not both, so they're looking for advice on which one is preferable. What's so wrong with that? You don't need to make a spreadsheet for this decision.