[PriorKnowledge]

1) yes
2) automatic

overcall at 1-level on any 5 card suit and any 8+hcp

[the hog]

Interesting! Bill suggested their might be a divide on different sides of the pond. The Italians would overcall without a second thought. I would bid 1H but consider it very close.

Here is a quote from Paul Marston on this hand:

"I am surprised that the view of this group is so crusty.
Consider this likely hand for partner:
Kxxx
Kxxx
xx
Axx
For all you passers, the bidding goes 1D - p - 1S - p - 2S, which presumably
gets passed out. That makes about 110. You probably have 140 in hearts
(maybe 620!). Who's to blame?
At the other table it goes 1D - 1H - 1S - 3H - 3S - p - 4S - X. That goes
for 500. Do you blame your teammates? You shouldn't: opener overbid to show
spade support (as we all do) and responder took a close push to a game. On a
good day this would make but today it was wrecked by the poor position of
the diamonds and the bad trump break. The trouble is that the opponents with
your cards forced your teamates to guess and, unluckily, they guessed wrong.
So you lose 12 imps instead of the 6 imps you were already slated to lose.
You don't need a heart fit for bidding to be right. Give partner: Kxxx, xx,
xx, AQxxx. This time the other table bids 1D - 1H - 1S - 2C - 2S - 3C and
the opponents with your cards have the plus score they should have while you
still lose 110.
You can piously justify your pass of 1D by counting your points or examining
the quality of your heart spots but the truth is that you are just a stodgy
old bugger who never bids. You have failed to take an almost no-cost
opportunity to bring partner into the action and you have paid the price. If
you have partnership rules that prevent you from overcalling on this hand
then you should quickly change the rules."

[PriorKnowledge]

Another reason to bid 1H. Suppose the bidding goes
(1D) p (2N) p (3N) all pass
and partner leads a spade instead of a heart from KJx.
Wouldn't you want to kick yourself for passing?

[tysen2k]

Excellent problem, Ron. I think this is super close. My first instinct was Pass, then 1♥, then Pass again. I'm still not sure. The example hands given for justifying overcalling are naturally biased to favor the author's view. I can give an example in the other direction as well:

Scoring: IMP

---

If you pass I can see it going:
(1♦) Pass (1♠) 2C
(2♠) 3C All Pass

Overcall 1H and try to keep partner from going to game.

But in general, I don't think the 1♥ overcall is bad. It could certainly work.

Tysen

[Fluffy]

PriorKnowledge, on Nov 17 2004, 08:29 PM, said:

1) yes
2) automatic

overcall at 1-level on any 5 card suit and any 8+hcp

wow, I though I would be alone here, nice to see you .

[cf_John0]

(1)1H;
(2)wait.
There is a trap of the opp's 4-4 Heart fit.

[Chamaco]

The_Hog, on Nov 17 2004, 08:59 PM, said:

" Do you blame your teammates? You shouldn't:

--- cut --
The trouble is that the opponents with
your cards forced your teamates to guess and, unluckily, they guessed wrong.

-- cut --

You have failed to take an almost no-cost
opportunity to bring partner into the action and you have paid the price. "

I disagree with Marston here on at least 2 points.

1) The overcall is not at all a "NO COST " opportunity, because:

a) It promises more solid values, at this vuln. This is generally accepted, but I understand some people lower the requirements for overcall. I disagree on lowering the requirements at IMPS, vulnerable though.

b ) Bridge is a game of %, or, if you like, cost-benefit analyses.
When you take a decsisions, you weight up losses and gains. Sometimes, even making the % choice, you may end up scoring badly, but that does not mean the choice was wrong on percentage.
As I discussed in my previous post, the overcall may mislead pard in terms of values, in terms of blowing trick on opening lad (which may result in giving the contract away), and in terms of suggesting a sac when we hld a low ODR ratio.

On the other hand, overcalling may result in finding a god sac or pushing opps up.
I belive the chances of the latter being right are much lower than the potential losses.

c) I have read someone saying 1H is a "nuisance bid".
It is not, because it does not steal space (only one step up of last opps bid), actually it helps opps in the biding (they can bid, pas or double).

I suggest to those who call this a nuisance bid toi read carefully the chapter on Nuisance bids in the book "Matchpoints" by Kit Woolsey. t is written for matchpoints but the argument given apply as well to IMPS.

d) i like to take my decsions based on the value of he hand (and of course also on the pressure put on my opps.
Here my hand is not suited for offense.
I won't bid just because I expect my pard to overbid (in that case I'd rather change partners).
If we get a score once in a while, so be it, it will be compensated by the times where I'll avoid silly big penalties at IMPS.

[Chamaco]

Quote

(1D) 1H (X) 3H is a nuisance bid facilitated by the 1H bid. Even

3H is nuisance because it takes up room.
However, with our hand and wased values, how many times will 3H be welcome by us ?
If I overcall with such hand I'd be very worried to hear a 3H bid, especially if I play with a pard who uses "Total trick" raises: he would not know of my wasted values.
On a good day it'll work, but I rate it to work well less often that it backfires, at IMPS, vulnerable.

Quote

(1D) 1H (X) 2H is a nuisance bid.

2H is only a minor nuisance.
Opener can bid 2S with a minimum, 3S with a max, double again, bid NT, cuebid, etc etc.
He can even define btter his hand by passing, so actually he has extra options.

Responder has already said he has 4 spades (or denied it, if playing that 1S sows 4+), in a few cases things will be awkward, but onbalance that should not be a big problem.

[Fluffy]

It seems obvious to me that 1♥ will be good as long as partner has support and bad (can be very badly if leads a doubleton honnor) if he hasn´t got it.

How many ♥ does partner have? giventhat you can rule out opener having 5 cards it will be about 2.7 or 2.8 average, so more likelly that is good .

Of course you also have to take a note on dangers and advantages, if you are driving them into a bad game decision 1% more times than you are gonna concede -1100....

[dogsbreath]

Hi
good problem Ron. certainly pros &cons to the 1H o'call. H suit not ideal but if you are playing in a free-bidding partnership bidding 1H does discourage P from entering with Spades when opps may be more inclined to take a penalty. (eg converting a neg or competitive x). Until recentlyI'd never have considered an overcall but i am more inclined now. Dont think i could quite stomach it at Red-v-White tho )
Rgds Dog

[Rebound]

For those of you promoting the bid of 1H, I think you are forgetting the benefit to opponents, who may hold AKJ of hearts, and are now free to cue-bid hearts or bid NT to show stoppers in the suit. A 1H bid gives them extra actions to choose from, not fewer, as the "nuisance bidders" may suggest. I pass.

[EricK]

Rebound, on Nov 21 2004, 02:49 PM, said:

For those of you promoting the bid of 1H, I think you are forgetting the benefit to opponents, who may hold AKJ of hearts, and are now free to cue-bid hearts or bid NT to show stoppers in the suit. A 1H bid gives them extra actions to choose from, not fewer, as the "nuisance bidders" may suggest. I pass.

The people who are advocating 1♥ are not "forgetting" anything. They realise there are plus points and minus points for practically *every* call that they ever make and they choose the call where they believe the plus points outweigh the minus points.

Are you absolutely sure that the minus points of bidding 1♥ outweigh the plus points?

Eric

[Chamaco]

EricK, on Nov 21 2004, 03:47 PM, said:

The people who are advocating 1♥ are not "forgetting" anything. They realise there are plus points and minus points for practically *every* call that they ever make and they choose the call where they believe the plus points outweigh the minus points.

I think Rebound may have used the wrong words, but I agree with him by restating the following opinion:

1H bidders

1- *overstate* the nuisance effect and obstructive effect (marginal 1H overcalls with bad suit over 1D in itself is a backfiring tatctics, as illustrated by the book by Kit Woolsey), and

2- understate the dangers of conveying to pard a wrong message (standard overcalls suggest an offensive hand -if holding less than opening - or a better hand in terms of HCP strength), which may be decide to jump raise or sacrifice and resulting in sever penalties at IMP vulnerable (remember you cannot always hope opps stretch to bad game).

The posted hand is terrible in Offense/defense ratio, holding 70% of hcp in opps suit, what's more 1H is not lead directing and a H lead has many chances to blow the decisive trick.

Sure enough, in a weak field it will work, but I'd like to know if a world class player would bid 1H here *against his peers*.

[the hog]

"Sure enough, in a weak field it will work, but I'd like to know if a world class player would bid 1H here *against his peers*. "

The answer to that is "Yes" Mauro. Read Paul Marston's comment above.

[Cascade]

The_Hog, on Nov 22 2004, 09:59 AM, said:

"Sure enough, in a weak field it will work, but I'd like to know if a world class player would bid 1H here *against his peers*. "

The answer to that is "Yes" Mauro. Read Paul Marston's comment above.

I think he really wants to know how many world class players will bid 1♥ against their peers.

In any case that is much more interesting information.

[whereagles]

To overcall or not is very, very borderline. And as usual in such situations, it's tactical considerations that decide, more than the technical merit.

If you're winning and opps are desperate, overcall 1H because that's what they'll probably do at the other table, and you want to do what they're doing. Etc...