[Zelandakh]

Another, largely unknown, option is French 2NT, showing 5-5 in any 2 suits without spades (so ♣ + ♦, ♣ + ♥ or ♦ + ♥). Last time I checked (previous rules) this was legal in EBUland. It matches well with multi-2♦ and 2♥ for the majors if this is your thing.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2012-July-02, 03:03, said:

Another, largely unknown, option is French 2NT, showing 5-5 in any 2 suits without spades (so ♣ + ♦, ♣ + ♥ or ♦ + ♥). Last time I checked (previous rules) this was legal in EBUland. It matches well with multi-2♦ and 2♥ for the majors if this is your thing.

I believe it's legal now, how do the responses work ?

I was contemplating a couple of things:

1. a variant with diamonds being the missing suit, meaning you could bid 3♣ to play and 3♦ as an enquiry.

2. playing a normal 2N and 3 weak 2s 1/2 and this sort of 2N/multi and different 2M in 3rd.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-July-02, 04:17, said:

I believe it's legal now, how do the responses work ?

I was contemplating a couple of things:

1. a variant with diamonds being the missing suit, meaning you could bid 3♣ to play and 3♦ as an enquiry.

2. playing a normal 2N and 3 weak 2s 1/2 and this sort of 2N/multi and different 2M in 3rd.

Interestingly enough Marvin French seems to have dropped this from his website. I am almost sure the responses were still there 4 months or so ago. Having had a quick look around, noone seems to have copied it down, not even Chris Ryall. From memory the key call was using 3♥ as a strong relay to unwind the various possibilities but if really interested in this I would suggest asking for a copy from Marvin himself if noone here can give the structure in more detail. It certainly was not under the category of "simple conventions" which is one reason I have not taken it up at any time.

1. Playing the convention with any two from clubs, hearts and spades would seem to work well enough if it fits better with the 2-level structure. The extra step on the relay would probably help constructuve bidding quite alot. The downside is that it is usually better to get in on spade hands and mixing them in cuts down on the preemption for those quite alot.

2. It often makes sense to play different structures in 3rd and 4th seat than 1st/2nd. That said, the benefit you get from the extra relay step is much reduced when playing the suggested 2NT opening in 3rd. Am interested what you have in mind that would include the spade hands instead of the diamond hands here.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2012-July-02, 04:50, said:

Interestingly enough Marvin French seems to have dropped this from his website. I am almost sure the responses were still there 4 months or so ago. Having had a quick look around, noone seems to have copied it down, not even Chris Ryall. From memory the key call was using 3♥ as a strong relay to unwind the various possibilities but if really interested in this I would suggest asking for a copy from Marvin himself if noone here can give the structure in more detail. It certainly was not under the category of "simple conventions" which is one reason I have not taken it up at any time.

1. Playing the convention with any two from clubs, hearts and spades would seem to work well enough if it fits better with the 2-level structure. The extra step on the relay would probably help constructuve bidding quite alot. The downside is that it is usually better to get in on spade hands and mixing them in cuts down on the preemption for those quite alot.

2. It often makes sense to play different structures in 3rd and 4th seat than 1st/2nd. That said, the benefit you get from the extra relay step is much reduced when playing the suggested 2NT opening in 3rd. Am interested what you have in mind that would include the spade hands instead of the diamond hands here.

If I was doing 2, there is no real need to be able to bid constructively (depending on what point range I played for the opener), and I'd probably go with the original suits.

I didn't twig French was a person rather than a nationality in this context, or I might have gone looking for it.

[32519]

While we're busy ripping the Multi apart, let's put the Multi 2NT opener back on the table. 2NT for 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP is gifting the opponents the hand layout to bid and make thin games in the majors. They will finesse partner for any missing HCP in both majors.

[Free]

32519, on 2013-July-11, 23:01, said:

While we're busy ripping the Multi apart, let's put the Multi 2NT opener back on the table. 2NT for 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP is gifting the opponents the hand layout to bid and make thin games in the majors. They will finesse partner for any missing HCP in both majors.

Same goes for natural preempts. Will you stop playing 3-level and higher preempts?

[nige1]

I play 2N = 5+ ♥ and 5+ other, with responses

• 3♣ = Pass/Correct.
• 3♦ = Relay. Then 3♥ = ♠, 3♠ = ♣, 3N = ♦, 4 bids = Natural, max.
• 3♥... = Nat (An anchor suit allows more pre-emption)

[32519]

32519, on 2013-July-11, 23:01, said:

While we're busy ripping the Multi apart, let's put the Multi 2NT opener back on the table. 2NT for 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP is gifting the opponents the hand layout to bid and make thin games in the majors. They will finesse partner for any missing HCP in both majors.

Free, on 2013-July-12, 10:07, said:

Same goes for natural preempts. Will you stop playing 3-level and higher preempts?

There is a significance difference between a normal pre-empt and the 2NT bid promising 5/5 in the minors. For a 2-level pre-empt, declarer only knows six of openers cards. He still needs to work out what the other seven are. Similarly for a 3-level pre-empt. There are still six unknown cards.

But with the 5/5 minor suit holding, declarer already knows 10 of openers cards. After the third round of the majors, declarer can name each individual card in left in partners hand in the majors. Now he is playing the hand (almost) double dummy. Declarers options for making a thin game in the majors can include the following –
1. Finessing partner for any missing high cards in the majors
2. “Throw-in-play” when declarer needs to set up an additional trick but cannot lead to the trick himself

After the third round in the majors partner also knows the remaining cards in the majors in declarers hand (he can see what’s in dummy). The clueless player in all this is the one who showed 5/5 in the minors.

[Free]

Ok, I was trying to be ironic because your argument ("2NT for 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP is gifting the opponents the hand layout to bid and make thin games in the majors") doesn't make much sense when you compare it to the "multi 2NT". Let me put it this way:

Playing 2NT as both minors, or playing it as either both minors or both Majors has the same issues for opps' declarer play. When you play the multi 2NT, declarer can immediately see (with some rare exceptions) which suits the preempter holds and play accordingly. When it's both minors he needs 3 rounds of a Major suit for a complete layout, when it's both Majors he needs 3 rounds of a minor suit.

[32519]

Free, on 2013-July-13, 00:26, said:

Ok, I was trying to be ironic because your argument ("2NT for 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP is gifting the opponents the hand layout to bid and make thin games in the majors") doesn't make much sense when you compare it to the "multi 2NT".

That is exactly what I am comparing it to, the "multi 2NT".

Free, on 2013-July-13, 00:26, said:

Let me put it this way:
Playing 2NT as both minors, or playing it as either both minors or both Majors has the same issues for opps' declarer play. When you play the multi 2NT, declarer can immediately see (with some rare exceptions) which suits the preempter holds and play accordingly. When it's both minors he needs 3 rounds of a Major suit for a complete layout, when it's both Majors he needs 3 rounds of a minor suit.

I think you’re still missing the point. A thin game in the majors requires 10 tricks. A thin game in the minors requires 11 tricks. That is one trick short of slam. I don’t think many will define that as thin. To make a thin minor suit game you will need a distributional fit with partner. If your side has a distributional fit in the minors, the opponents will have a distributional fit in the majors. They are always going to outbid you. Even if your side decides to sacrifice, the opponents still get the plus score. For sure you will be able to bid the occasional minor suit slam because of the known distribution, but when it happens the opponents will be able to sacrifice in the majors. Depending on the vulnerability, four down doubled will be a good score against a making minor suit slam.

I fail to see any benefit in the bid other than removing the entire 1 and 2-levels for the opponents. I know that many play the bid, even some top internationals. I request that these players give me all their reasons for playing it just like I have given you a whole string of disadvantages for playing it.

[32519]

We have been playing 2NT as 5/5 in the majors since the beginning of the year. On this hand only 4/16 tables got to the excellent slam.

---

A ♠ slam fails if North leads a ♣ and South returns a ♥. Nearly every North led the ♦K which allowed declarer to discard the ♣ loser.

[nige1]

32519, on 2013-July-19, 10:57, said:

We have been playing 2NT as 5/5 in the majors since the beginning of the year. On this hand only 4/16 tables got to the excellent slam. A ♠ slam fails if North leads a ♣ and South returns a ♥. Nearly every North led the ♦K which allowed declarer to discard the ♣ loser.

---

Well done 32519! Although, looking only at the EW hands, I'd feel safer in game.

[benlessard]

Quote

I play 2N = 5+ ♥ and 5+ other, with responses

3♣ = Pass/Correct.
3♦ = Relay. Then 3♥ = ♠, 3♠ = ♣, 3N = ♦, 4 bids = Natural, max.
3♥... = Nat (An anchor suit allows more pre-emption)

Why over 3D opener doesnt bid 3H with any minimum ? 3S with a Max with S, 3Nt with max and a minor. 4m&4H show extras shapes and strenght.

It seems to me that being able to inv and stop in 3H trump any other consideration.

[32519]

How about this hand from the same club game. This time again only 4 managed to get to the ♠ game.

---

[awm]

32519, on 2013-July-19, 13:31, said:

How about this hand from the same club game. This time again only 4 managed to get to the ♠ game.

Posting these doesn't help your case. You seem to think that finding good games and slams that other tables don't bid is the purpose of opening preempts, when this is far from the case. Mostly these examples you post show one or both of: (1) You are not particularly good at determining which games/slams are good, and seem to credit your methods whenever you land in a poor but lucky contract that makes (2) The fields you play in are not particularly good, and miss excellent games and slams with some regularity.

The real purposes of preempts are to make things difficult for opponents by removing their space, and to find good sacrifices on hands where opponents have the majority of the strength. Obviously you don't want to lose good games/slams too often by preempting (so some discipline is required) but "getting to my making game on more than half the high card points that I would miss otherwise" is not a reason to preempt (rather, it's a reason to work on your constructive bidding).

[32519]

I disagree with you entirely. The purpose of nearly every convention is to convey hand pattern and/or strength or both to partner. That is what happened here, especially the slam hand. Partner was able to judge well where the contract belonged. On the second hand, my guess is that East passed in first seat because the ♥ suit is so weak allowing South to enter with 3♣.

Thus far the bid has now arisen around 15 times this year. 14/15 ended up in a good score. The 15th was poor because of an idiotic line of play chosen by myself not the bid. So maybe I should chalk up 15/15 good results. 2NT for the minors still rates as one of the dumbest bids in anyone's system notes.

[wank]

32519, on 2013-July-19, 22:55, said:

The purpose of nearly every non-pre-empt is to convey hand pattern and/or strength or both to partner.

FYP. i realise listening isn't your forte, but with regard to AWM, you really should try it. his forum contributions are always excellent, especially with regard to system.

[32519]

wank, on 2013-July-19, 23:15, said:

FYP. i realise listening isn't your forte, but with regard to AWM, you really should try it. his forum contributions are always excellent, especially with regard to system.

I have a question for you: "What do you hope to gain by altering what I actually posted? Is it to provide your own wisdom to the other forum posters?"
[Ok, that was actually two questions].
But the wisdom in your post is beyond comment. You want me to drop something from my agreements because one of your forum heros says so? I keep on racking up good scores with this. To drop it while this is the case is even worse than playing 2NT for the minors.

[Free]

32519, on 2013-July-19, 13:31, said:

How about this hand from the same club game. This time again only 4 managed to get to the ♠ game.

---

Seems easy to reach 4♠ after East opens a normal 1♠...

[the hog]

Numeric one, your posts are replete with logical errors. Playing 2NT as Majors is very foolish. Majors outbid minors, don' you know? Hence you ar forcing your partnership to the 3 level on a hand where you can outbid the opponents. Best is actually to open 2H with Majors.
Secondly 2NT with the minors is also not a good idea as you allow the opps 3C/3D to show various hand types. Again, best is to open 3C with minors and reserve 2NT for something else. (C pre emt only gives the opps 1 option_