[Fluffy]

It is possible to shwo a quantitative after 4SF, but it is also possible, and IMo even easier to show a GF with ♠ support, that is what would let me think about a quantitative one, but still the argument is quite weak to counter the standard meaning: RKCB in ♠.

[EricK]

Jlall, on Nov 16 2004, 10:54 PM, said:

of course he would need significant extras to jump if fsf is GF. Jumps in game forcing auctions are descriptive and pretty rare. There would be no reason for him to jump willy nilly.

Not at all.

In a GF FSF auction, partner will bid your suit at the 2 level with a doubleton honour in a 5422 hand, and will jump with 3 card support. That is the extra description required by the jump and it is not based on strength (in this instance).

Eric

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Nov 16 2004, 10:52 PM, said:

Nobody has yet explained why we might need to Keycard for ♠ straight away, instead of agreeing the suit first.


While I agree with your comment Eric, is not KC the easiest auction on

Kxxx AKQJxx x Ax

It's certainly easy. What do you do if partner shows 0 keycards? If partners spades are weak, this hand will likely play better in ♥ (discarding your spade losers on dummy's minor suits). Can you systemically bail out in 5♥?

I accept that most "random" partners would take this as KC for ♠, but I have never held a hand whcih could accurately determine the correct contract simply by bidding RKC after partner has bid a couple of suits at the one level. Maybe such hands exist but they are as "rare as rocking horse manure", and can probably be bid other ways anyway.

I think most good players would agree that Blackwood is vastly over-used and over-rated. I am surprised that so many of them seem to want to use it in this sort of auction.

Eric

[cooee]

Hi
I think it is a natural bid asking pd to bid slam NT if strong enough.
No trump suit had been decided so it cannot be Blackwood can it ?
Cooee

[cf_John0]

The_Hog, on Nov 16 2004, 05:52 PM, said:

Nobody has yet explained why we might need to Keycard for ♠ straight away, instead of agreeing the suit first.

Let me try.
(1)The responser want to reverse to 2S if the opener dont bid 1S; and
(2)there is neither void nor single in hand;
(3)Just concern the quality of trumps and side ctrls for a slam;
At these kind of cases ,why dont u bid RKC 4NT?

[EricK]

cf_John0, on Nov 18 2004, 03:20 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Nov 16 2004, 05:52 PM, said:

Nobody has yet explained why we might need to Keycard for ♠ straight away, instead of agreeing the suit first.

Let me try.
(1)The responser want to reverse to 2S if the opener dont bid 1S; and
(2)there is neither void nor single in hand;
(3)Just concern the quality of trumps and side ctrls for a slam;
At these kind of cases ,why dont u bid RKC 4NT?

This explains why you might want to bid RKB for ♠ (although the hand is exceptionally rare - much rarer than a quantitative bid IMO), but it doesn't explain why you need to do it straight away instead of agreeing ♠ first via FSF.

Eric

[helene_t]

I play this as quantitative with one of my partners. Not that it makes that much sense since you would probably first look for a fit. It happened once and I didn't know what to do with my minimal HCPs and solid 6-card diamonds. Just gambled 6NT in order to right-side the contract which turned out to be the right decision, but I'm not sure if it was the right bid.

[cf_John0]

IMO the responser considers she/he could be the master of the bidding period.

[inquiry]

cf_John0, on Nov 18 2004, 09:54 PM, said:

IMO the responser considers she/he could be the master of the bidding period.

First, welcome to the Bridge Base Forum. I have noticed your a very recent poster. Second, what does this statement mean? IF 4NT is quantatitive, partner has just turned the auction over to you to be master. If it is some kind of blackwood, then partner has taken control. So are you suggesting it is blackwood? And if so, what kind (for hearts, for spades, for hearts and spades, for just aces)?

[mycroft]

Meta-rules in most of my partnerships:

1: 4NT is quantitative where 4C is Gerber: Directly over NT openings, responses and rebids, and directly after Stayman and Jacoby Transfer and response.

2: 4NT is 4-ace on the first round only. Otherwise, keycard for: agreed suit/2C-er's suit/last bid suit in that order (when 2C isn't my strong artificial bid, there are other toys...)

3: Confusing bids are forcing (though I do like the variant I saw elsewhere: confusing bids below game are forcing, above game are to play).

So, for me it's RKC for spades.

I agree that this is probably not the best agreements, but I sleep nights before big (for me) games rather than worrying whether I remember "exception 1004".

Michael.