[Phil]

(3♦) - 4♥ - (pass) - 4♠

Thanks

[dkham]

Forcing.

Never discussed this specifically, but I think what you do over your partner's preempts dictates what you do here. For example, I play that if partner opens with a weak two then a new suit by me is forcing. This is because it's so rare you want to change the trump suit when partner's already shown a long suit of his own. For the same reason I take 4♠ in the original problem as forcing, and agreeing hearts.

[awm]

Forcing; cue for hearts (or kickback if you play it). These strong natural jumps over preempts should set the suit.

[MrAce]

What Awm said

[Phil]

dkham, on 2012-June-27, 10:32, said:

Forcing.

Never discussed this specifically, but I think what you do over your partner's preempts dictates what you do here.

You do understand that 4♥ isn't preemptive, right?

[ArtK78]

Can't really argue that 4♠ is anything but forcing on this auction, as the 4♥ bidder has shown a very strong suit.

But how about this one: (4♦) - 4♥ - (P) - 4♠?

[gnasher]

What awm said. I think Art's sequence is natural and to play.

[MrAce]

ArtK78, on 2012-June-27, 11:01, said:

But how about this one: (4♦) - 4♥ - (P) - 4♠?

This one is not as clear as the other one. Here 4♥ bidder is not voluntarily jumping to game over a preempt but rather taking an action under high pressure that heavy preempt created. I can imagine myself bidding 4♥ with wide variety of hands where i dont promise anything about my suit quality, such as;

Ax
KJxxxx
void
KTxxx

Kx
AJxxxxx
Axx
x

Ax
AKxxx
void
Qxxxxx

etc etc...i know some of you may not like it and prefer to pass, i definetely bid with those type of hands. This is why 4 minor preempts are very powerful, they force opponents to make a close decision where each decision can be fatal on that specific board.

I would take 4♠ as natural and trying to improve our chances of making game in the example you gave. I know it would be sad if pd bid 4♠ with AJxxxxx and stiff or doubleton ♥ and i had perfect hearts and we go down in 4♠. Whatever we choose we will almost always compromise from something over a 4 level preempt. I find 4m preempts tuffer to deal with than 4M preempts because they provide us more rope to hang ourselves since both majors are still in the picture, while after a 4M preempt our choices and our chances of making bad decisions are a little restricted.

[rogerclee]

OK maybe I am out to lunch but to me it seems really bad to play 4S is a cuebid here. Yes you can construct hands like AKQxx xxx xx xxx where it's awesome to be able to bid 4S, but to me, there is clearly a large set of hands that wants to bid a natural 4S over 4H, and not a large set of hands where I specifically want to cuebid 4S and feel uncomfortable bidding blackwood, 5C, 5D, or 5H.

[mfa1010]

Agree with clee. Certainly about the second auction where it seems unplayable to me not to have a natural 4♠ available when partner was under such pressure. In the first auction there is a good case for 4♠ cuebid, but I would still strongly prefer 4♠ natural (NF, but partner can still bid).

[Phil]

This came up earlier. Cayne had a big hand for 4♠ - AQTxxxxx void AJx Ax. After Dano cued with 5♦ holding x AKQJxxx Jx Qxx, Cayne jumped to 7♠. Dano made 7N on a black suit squeeze.

At the time I didn't think 4♠ was forcing.

[cherdano]

I don't think 4♥ sets trumps - you can't double-and-bid-4♥ with both 2=6 and 3=5 in the majors.

[lalldonn]

I used to think if partner jumped to game over a preempt that a new suit was a cuebid, which at least was an easy rule to follow, but I agree with those who say that really doesn't make much sense for 4♠ over 4♥.

[MrAce]

cherdano, on 2012-June-27, 16:21, said:

I don't think 4♥ sets trumps - you can't double-and-bid-4♥ with both 2=6 and 3=5 in the majors.

You cant bid 4♥ with 3-5 in the majors either. Not even with 2-6 if the 6 card suit is not good enough. We have simple overcall for these upto 18 hcp. (or wherever you draw the line) For some experts there is no hand which is too good to overcall. Of course this is exaggerated statement but tells us something.

If you have more than 18 hcp and a not so good suit to jump to 4 you will almost always have good honors in the other major and can tolerate to play if your pd has 5 or 6 of them. Of course you can sit down and construct hands where this method fails, but then someoneelse can sit down and construct hands where those fail who never doubles with 2-6 majors or who jumpst to 4 with a crappy suit just because they have 19 hcp.

For some of us 4♥ over 3♦ is not just a strength showing bid with a 6 card suit, it is a "picture bid". It's primary function is to tell aboutthe suit quality, strength is secondary msg. Which promises a very decent suit and not thrilled to play something else. Double and then 4♥ indicates tolerance to play another suit or 2 places to play with main suit being the one he bid after dbl. This way you can DBL and bid a suit without fear of pd may think it is a great suit. You would have jumped at the first place if it was.

Regardless of which style you prefer, these are (such as 4♠ bid over 4♥) not the type of things that an expert pdship should try to figure by logic at the table. It needs to be discussed. We all know trying to be in same wavelength in an undiscussed subject results randomly. Even for those who played together a lifetime like Meckwell.

Clee likes to play this 4♠ natural, Awm prefers it to be cue agreeing hearts. Which one is better ? Imo whichever is known by pd is A LOT better. Eventhough i am in the camp of AWM, without discussion bidding 4♠ with the intention of cue, is nothing but sadism, i admit.

[rogerclee]

Given that you would never in a million years bid 4S as a cuebid without discussion (since it's risky and you have so many other suitable alternative bids), it stands to reason that 4S is natural if undiscussed.

[mcphee]

Have I actually seen words like, "partner was under pressure"? LHO pops up with 3!D and our partner bids 4!H does not sound like pressure to me. I can not imagine that 4!S is not a cue bid. What hand can the player have? As the 4!H shows a good hand that expects to have play opposite not so much trump help this does not seem like the time to improve the contract.

[gnasher]

cherdano, on 2012-June-27, 16:21, said:

I don't think 4♥ sets trumps - you can't double-and-bid-4♥ with both 2=6 and 3=5 in the majors.

That sounds like an argument for choice-of-game cue-bids.

If not playing those, I would double then bid 4♥ with both 2=6 and 3=5. I think that the hands with a self-supporting suit are more common than both of those put together: the flexible hands need so much more in high cards to justify driving game, and they will sometimes be suitable for double-then-3NT.

[MrAce]

mcphee, on 2012-June-28, 06:45, said:

Have I actually seen words like, "partner was under pressure"? LHO pops up with 3!D and our partner bids 4!H does not sound like pressure to me. I can not imagine that 4!S is not a cue bid. What hand can the player have? As the 4!H shows a good hand that expects to have play opposite not so much trump help this does not seem like the time to improve the contract.

Yes you have seen those words, but if you spared your time and read that this was a reply to another question, you wouldnt embarrass yourself. Fyi, partner was under pressure comment was a reply to Arty's auction which he asked "What if preempter opened 4♦ and pd bids 4♥..." Not the one that started with 3♦ and 4♥ overcall.