[mike777]

I know this may fool people but:


1minor=1h
1s is not forcing without discussion....and in general no


please dont bid this with huge hand and 4h thanks.

[the hog]

mike777, on 2012-June-24, 01:16, said:

I know this may fool people but:


1minor=1h
1s is not forcing without discussion....and in general no


please dont bid this with huge hand and 4h thanks.

I certainly play it as forcing.

[mike777]

the hog, on 2012-June-24, 01:46, said:

I certainly play it as forcing.

noted if I am ever honored to play a game with you.


but I ask you dont do this with huge hand with 4h when I bid 1h...please

---


fwiw If 1c nv i tend to respond on almost nothing or less

[Trinidad]

Not forcing is very hard to play, unless you have special agreements. I will complicate the matter somewhat.

I could imagine that 1♣-1♥; 1♠ could be played as non forcing, but 1♦-1♥; 1♠ has to be forcing, since it is the natural way to bid a 4144 pattern. The strength can range from 12 to 23 HCPs. (All assuming that you will open a 4144 pattern with 1♦ and not 1♣.)

The fact that you respond to 1♣ on "almost nothing or less" is your responsability. After all, while 1m-1♥; 1♠ should be forcing, a 1♣ opening is not.

Rik

[mike777]

silly



1s nonforcing common last 100 years

responding to 1c nv with nothing common last 20 years or less

--


2 seperate issues.

--



if your issue is 4441 hands hard to bid ok but we know that for 50years

[Mbodell]

mike777, on 2012-June-24, 01:16, said:

I know this may fool people but:
1minor=1h
1s is not forcing without discussion....and in general no
please dont bid this with huge hand and 4h thanks.

Agree, if you want to force bid 2♠ or reverse in to 2♦ or jump shift to 3♣ (depending on which minor was opened) or splinter w/ heart support. 1♠, 1nt, 2m, 2♥, 2nt, 3m, and 3♥ are all non-forcing calls in my book over 1m-1♥. That said, 1♠ isn't that often passed (especially not by partner and opponents).

[gordontd]

mike777, on 2012-June-24, 01:16, said:

I know this may fool people but:


1minor=1h
1s is not forcing without discussion....and in general no


please dont bid this with huge hand and 4h thanks.

I can't imagine what prompted you to think this thread was needed! Who would ever think of re-bidding 1♠ (even if they did believe it to be forcing) with four-card heart support? Would they expect to be able to describe their hand better one round later?

[mike777]

gordontd, on 2012-June-24, 03:31, said:

I can't imagine what prompted you to think this thread was needed! Who would ever think of re-bidding 1♠ (even if they did believe it to be forcing) with four-card heart support? Would they expect to be able to describe their hand better one round later?

a real life hand with huge and 4h on bbo


pard scream...yell...say f...u.....after i pass 1s

i had 4h and well roughly 4hp or so.......roughly... a nothing hand

i had 3 nothing spades

[gordontd]

mike777, on 2012-June-24, 03:34, said:

a real life hand with huge and 4h on bbo


pard scream...yell...say f...u.....after i pass 1s

i had 4h and well roughly 4hp or so.......roughly... a nothing hand

i had 3 nothing spades

It sounds like your life will be better without that partner.

[mike777]

gordontd, on 2012-June-24, 03:57, said:

It sounds like your life will be better without that partner.

so now you can imagine......people so often have none

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2012-June-24, 01:16, said:

I know this may fool people but:


1minor=1h
1s is not forcing without discussion....and in general no


please dont bid this with huge hand and 4h thanks.

We play it as "forcing if you had a response" (we sometimes respond light), I might have passed on your hand, but we have other options for big hands with support than 1♠.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-June-24, 04:43, said:

We play it as "forcing if you had a response" (we sometimes respond light), I might have passed on your hand, but we have other options for big hands with support than 1♠.

Yes, and for us the 1S rebid can include some very strong balanced hands...none of them having 4 hearts. The unbalanced hands with spades and/or 4 hearts (too strong to splinter) will jump shift. But if partner has responded to 1m on some cheesy 4-4 4-count, we will be better off in 1S than 2NT, for instance, when I have opened KJXX XX AKX AKXX.

If the response was, in fact, made with responding values (6+), then 1/1/1 is forcing.

[mikl_plkcc]

Forcing?:

1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣
1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣/2♦

If they are forcing, the bidding becomes very difficult if holding a non-balanced hand with just 12 HCPs.

Another solution: Once a 1/1 has been bid, the auction is forcing to 1NT, but, another issue: How to bid strong two-suiters?!

Actually, I plays the following:
With 4-4 in the minors, open 1♣ (because it is easier to find 4-4 fits by bidding up-the-line);
With 5-5 or longer, open the higher;
A 1/1 response is forcing for one round, but no further obligation afterwards;
A 2/1 response is at least invitational and forcing for one round;
A double major raise is game forcing;
A jump response is preemptive and suggests a sub-minimum responding hand;
A non-reverse bid after 1/1 is non-forcing;
A reverse bid after 1/1 is at least invitational and forcing for one round;
A jump bid after 1/1 (no matter the suit has been bid or not) is game forcing;
A single raise after 1/1 is invitational;
A non-reverse new suit bid after 2/1 is forcing for one-round;
A reverse or jump suit bid after 2/1 is game forcing;

Then the bidding after 1/1 becomes easy:
If you want to force, make a reverse (F1) or jump (GF).
If you just want to sign off, bid a non-reverse suit or NT.
If you want to invite, make a non-forcing bid. Partner would raise holding invitational hand, then you may go game. (An invitational hand is a hand which makes a game opposite an invitational hand).

For example:
1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ = opener 13-18
1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥ = responder 6-11
1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥ - 3♥ = opener 16-18
1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥ - 3♥ - 4♥ = responder 9-11
1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 3♥ = game forcing, opener should probably cue-bid holding 16-18
1♣ - 1♦ - 2♥ = immediate game-force by opener, suggesting 4 ♥s only

As an opener holding 4=1=4=4, I would go:
1♣ - 1♦
1♠ (responder would pass only holding at least 4♠ and a minimum, otherwise, opener can always return to 2♦)

If responder initially bids 1♥, then a diamond fit has already been denied (I always bid 4-card suits up the line):
1♣ - 1♥
1♠ (again, responder would pass only holding at least 4♠ and a minimum, otherwise, he would probably bid 1NT holding a minimum)

[blackshoe]

For me, 1♦-1♥-1♠ is 12-18 unbalanced and denies 4♥. Encouraging, not forcing. Responder should rarely pass. If I'm balanced minimum, I bid 1NT. If partner has enough to go on (11+) and four spades, we'll find our fit.

[barmar]

Is the problem due to the expectation that 1♦-1♥-2♠ promises that the minor is longer than ♠, so they can't use this sequence with a game-forcing 4=1=4=4? While I agree about the distributional requirement for a reverse, I'm not convinced it's a requirement for opener's jump shift. Like blackshow, I believe a 1♠ rebid is limited to 18 HCP, with stronger you have to jump, even if the distribution isn't perfect. 1♠ has a wide range, but is not absolutely forcing, and may be passed with a dead minimum or less.

I believe that, even though I'm not a big believer in responding with <5 HCP (I'm always worried that partner will jump shift and we'll get too high).

[ArtK78]

The fact is that playing Standard methods, 1/1/1 is not forcing. True, it is rarely passed, but it happens.

[nige1]

mike777, on 2012-June-24, 01:16, said:

I know this may fool people but: 1minor=1h1s is not forcing without discussion....and in general no
please dont bid this with huge hand and 4h thanks.

IMO

• If your 1-level opening is non-forcing, and partner can respond on rubbish, then your simple-rebid shouldn't be forcing, although responder rarely passes.
• If you fit responder's major however, you should make a bid that shows support. and your aspirations. If, instead, you go daisy-picking, then the missed game/slam is your fault.