[dickiegera]

A long time partner of mine, no longer a favorite, told me last nite that since I pulled the 2nd card from the end I must have 1 lower [I played the 3 and the 2 was in the dummy]. I told her that looking where a card is pulled even from partner hand is cheating.
She it was my fault because I take too long to play my cards.

I tried to find where in the rules it says that you can't look to see where a card is pulled from and I couldn't

Which LAW prohibits this? I want to point it out to her.

Thank you

[aguahombre]

It is information from other than the bids made, one's own hand, and the cards played. Since a player is not supposed to use extraneous information, seeking it just becomes obviously improper.

I am sure someone will jump on this with the situation where we accidentally see cards in an opponent's hand. But we don't get to seek that either.

[blackshoe]

Quote

Law 74C5: The following are examples of violations of procedure…
Looking intently at any other player during the auction and play or at another player’s hand as for the purpose of seeing his cards or of observing the place from which he draws a card (but it is appropriate to act on information acquired by unintentionally seeing an opponent’s card*).

* See Law 73D2 when a player may have shown his cards intentionally.

Quote

Law 73D2: A player may not attempt to mislead an opponent by means of a remark or a gesture, by the haste or hesitancy of a call or play (as in hesitating before playing a singleton), the manner in which a call or play is made or by any purposeful deviation from correct procedure.

[gnasher]

 dickiegera, on 2012-June-20, 20:36, said:

A long time partner of mine, no longer a favorite

I think you should make that "no longer a partner".

[Phil]

Isn't this called 'slotting'?

[jillybean]

There is so much UI available from partner and opps by way of pulling cards, mannerisms, facial expressions, comments, other audible sounds (!), observing which suit partner is looking at in dummy...

I try to avoid UI by not looking above table/waist height during the play.

[blackshoe]

Maybe we should all play with our eyes closed.

[Cascade]

 Phil, on 2012-June-21, 09:11, said:

Isn't this called 'slotting'?

I have heard the term "slot count" used.

[BunnyGo]

 Cascade, on 2012-June-21, 11:42, said:

I have heard the term "slot count" used.

Also called 'Clocking'

[jh51]

 jillybean, on 2012-June-21, 09:30, said:

I try to avoid UI by not looking above table/waist height during the play.

Being a healthy red-blooded male, there are some opponents of the female persuasion that cause me to look about waist height.

[aguahombre]

 jh51, on 2012-June-21, 14:12, said:

Being a healthy red-blooded male, there are some opponents of the female persuasion that cause me to look about waist height.

Or cause us to look intently at our own cards.

[mycroft]

...and this is why, while I do sort my cards into suits, I don't sort them into ranks.

I don't think I've ever caught anyone doing that - I certainly haven't caught anybody playing me for a void when I switch about half my hand around after sorting (and no, I won't tell you under what circumstances I choose to do that).

But I sure know they exist.

[ArtK78]

An occasional partner of mine used to look at his hand without sorting the cards into suits. He did this so that no one would be able to tell anything about his hand based on the position of a played card in his hand.

He gave this up after a while after a few revokes and an occasional spectacular unblocking play (such as playing the K from Kxxx under dummy's A from Ax).

[wank]

The problem, as has been debated before, is the meaning of the phrase 'looking intently' in law 74.

To people who don't speak English in a perverse manner it means to stare at someone for a period of time. A quick glance at your opp for whatever purpose would therefore be legitimate.

To people who have an agenda to push on the matter it means to look at someone intentionally.

[gnasher]

 wank, on 2012-June-22, 12:41, said:

The problem, as has been debated before, is the meaning of the phrase 'looking intently' in law 74.

To people who don't speak English in a perverse manner it means to stare at someone for a period of time. A quick glance at your opp for whatever purpose would therefore be legitimate.

To people who have an agenda to push on the matter it means to look at someone intentionally.

This is a different question from the one we debated before. In this instance, the player is looking at the back of his partner's cards. Regardless of whether that's done intently or fleetingly, intentionally or accidentally, the information obtained is unauthorised. Intentionally obtaining this information may or may not be legal, but using it is certainly cheating.

[blackshoe]

 wank, on 2012-June-22, 12:41, said:

The problem, as has been debated before, is the meaning of the phrase 'looking intently' in law 74.

To people who don't speak English in a perverse manner it means to stare at someone for a period of time. A quick glance at your opp for whatever purpose would therefore be legitimate.

To people who have an agenda to push on the matter it means to look at someone intentionally.

Intentionally: deliberately, on purpose.
Intently: with earnest and eager attention.

Anyone who thinks these two words mean the same thing is, sadly, wrong.

[billw55]

 gnasher, on 2012-June-22, 14:21, said:

This is a different question from the one we debated before. In this instance, the player is looking at the back of his partner's cards. Regardless of whether that's done intently or fleetingly, intentionally or accidentally, the information obtained is unauthorised. Intentionally obtaining this information may or may not be legal, but using it is certainly cheating.

Agree, clear cheating, this player must be told so very clearly.

 jillybean, on 2012-June-21, 09:30, said:

There is so much UI available from partner and opps by way of pulling cards, mannerisms, facial expressions, comments, other audible sounds (!), observing which suit partner is looking at in dummy...

I try to avoid UI by not looking above table/waist height during the play.

Good intention, but you will lose much authorized and useful information from opponents mannerisms.

[jillybean]

edit:
I try to avoid UI by not looking at partner above table/waist height during the play.

[billw55]

 jillybean, on 2012-June-25, 09:02, said:

edit:
I try to avoid UI by not looking at partner above table/waist height during the play.

Aha that makes more sense.

Regarding ops (or partner, I suppose) looking at where cards are pulled from: this can be defended against with certain sorting methods as noted by others. I have read that some strong players (including Hamman) do not sort their hand at all. I might actually try that if using four color cards, which would make it much easier.

[Cascade]

 wank, on 2012-June-22, 12:41, said:

The problem, as has been debated before, is the meaning of the phrase 'looking intently' in law 74.

To people who don't speak English in a perverse manner it means to stare at someone for a period of time. A quick glance at your opp for whatever purpose would therefore be legitimate.

To people who have an agenda to push on the matter it means to look at someone intentionally.

I would have thought the natural meaning was to look for some purpose. The length of time being irrelevant. If you look for the purpose of deducing information from where they play their card then that is "looking intently". As such it would be covered by the law.

The agenda I push is fair play.