[awm]

Suppose you hold a balanced hand with about 4-6 points. After 1c-1d-1M (opponents passing) what do you bid?

[mgoetze]

Your choices are 1S, 1NT and 2M.

[awm]

So with three card support, raise or 1nt?

[bluecalm]

With 4 you generally pass.
With 5-7 you have a problem as partner could have 21. In general you bid 1NT with 3 cards support and raise with 4 card support.

This is clumsy sequence for polish club and many defenses arised to exploit it including passing every strong hand vs pc and doubling later hoping to catch them in 12-5 1NT or 2M.

[mgoetze]

Three card raises are generally rare in Europe. If my entire system discussion were "Polish Club" I would assume that a raise shows 4 and you bid 1NT with 3.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Three card raises are generally rare in Europe

There are even rarer if partner can have systemic 3 themselves

[straube]

Matula writes in his "The Polish Club" that 1C-1D, 1H is the correct rebid for the weak NT hands except specifically the 4-2-3-4 pattern which rebids 1S (just a paragraph earlier he said that 1H was the correct rebid for all weak NT major suit combinations except 4S/2H so why 4-2-3-4 specific I don't understand). Note that others might play different. Also note that 1C-1D, 1M can show other hands than the weak NT.

After 1C-1D, 1H

.....P-is possible
.....1S-he doesn't discuss this so I infer natural nf
.....1N-he doesn't discuss this so I infer minors nf
.....2m-natural and 12 or fewer hcps
.....2H-he doesn't discuss this so I infer natural
.....2S-10-12, five or more diamonds, 4 clubs
.....2N-16+, no 4-cd major or 5 minor
.....3C-gf, very good 6-cd suit
.....3D-10-12, six or more diamonds

So basically, it appears that most low-level bids are reserved for scrambling.

[mgoetze]

I've never read Matula's book on stone-age Polish Club but it seems weird to me to bid 1♥ with 4-3 majors.

[straube]

Maybe his book is too old to be useful. Could someone post a link to something more recent?

[bluecalm]

Quote

I've never read Matula's book on stone-age Polish Club but it seems weird to me to bid 1♥ with 4-3 majors.

There are some people doing this (bidding 1H on every weak hand). It's certainly not standard and I don't really see a point in it but I think it's not completely silly.

Quote

..1N-he doesn't discuss this so I infer minors nf

No, you need something for 5-6-7hcp and bal. You can't pass because opener could have 21.

Quote

.....2m-natural and 12 or fewer hcps

11 or fewer and 11 is not very comfortable. This is wide ranging bid (from nothing to 11) and you won't play game opposite basically 12-14 ever (as actions from opener will be considered competitive if they interfere and if they don't opener won't bid without super maximum and 4 card support).

Quote

.3C-gf, very good 6-cd suit

There are no GF club hands in 1D in any version of pc I am aware of.
3C and 3D bids are usually played as invitational (9-11) with weakish suit (good suits bid 3C/3D directly after 1C) but those are so rare I can't recall one time they occurred.

If you see holes in that, it's no surprise 1C - 1D - 1H/S sequence is weak side of pc. Fortunately it's rare as they usually bid and usually you can manage if they don't. You may end up in something silly though.

[mgoetze]

I didn't say it's completely silly, I do kind of see the point. It's just not what I would expect.

[Codo]

Wasn't the "lie" with 1 ♣ 1 ♦ 1 ♥ more common in the older versions of WJ?
Since WJ 2005 1 ♦ quite frequently holds 7-8 HCPS with a minor suit orientated hand, so the doubles of the later following 1 NT became less attractive...

[the hog]

with 3 card support and a 6-8 count bid 1NT.

[the hog]

Matula does not say this at all and I would hardly state that his book is Stone Age Polish Club, far from it in fact.
What he does say is that some player, (including himself), prefer that 1S is always 4 cards, noty 3 as is sometimes the case with versions of WJ. That means with 12-14 and a 3244 shape, he preefers to bid 1NT.

[han]

 bluecalm, on 2012-June-07, 15:32, said:

There are some people doing this (bidding 1H on every weak hand).

Although Drijver-Brink don't play Polish club, they do rebid 1H on all weak notrump hands.

[straube]

 the hog, on 2012-June-08, 00:59, said:

Matula does not say this at all and I would hardly state that his book is Stone Age Polish Club, far from it in fact.
What he does say is that some player, (including himself), prefer that 1S is always 4 cards, noty 3 as is sometimes the case with versions of WJ. That means with 12-14 and a 3244 shape, he preefers to bid 1NT.

That's not quite right either. From Matula's "The Polish Club"

"...with a weak, balanced hand. There are only two bids a prepared club opener can choose from, having heard partner's 1D response. They are 1H and 1S. For safety reasons and because of serious systemic considerations, I think that the traditional method of bidding the longer major or the cheaper major with equal length in hearts and spades should be modified as follows: After 1C-1D opener bids 1H with all major-suit combinations except when he has two hearts and four spades. Then he bids 1S....Assigning opener's 1S rebid the precise meaning in terms of relative major-suit length also helps in rescue manoeuvres because this rebid, when made on a weak hand, discloses the whole shape of opener's hand which must be 4-2-3-4....


and

....a balanced hand (good 18 to 23 HCP)-1N 18-21...2N-22-23"

So with a 12-14 3244 he rebids 1H. 1C-1D, 1N is 18-21.

[Tomi2]

 the hog, on 2012-June-08, 00:59, said:

Matula does not say this at all and I would hardly state that his book is Stone Age Polish Club, far from it in fact.
What he does say is that some player, (including himself), prefer that 1S is always 4 cards, noty 3 as is sometimes the case with versions of WJ. That means with 12-14 and a 3244 shape, he preefers to bid 1NT.

noooo
1NT rebid is alyways 18-20 in all polish club systems. the question is if you bid 1H or 1S but not 1NT...

[the hog]

 Tomi2, on 2012-June-09, 16:01, said:

noooo
1NT rebid is alyways 18-20 in all polish club systems. the question is if you bid 1H or 1S but not 1NT...

I meant 1H of course and this was a mistype. That should have been obvious to everyone. Of course 1NT is 18-20.

[straube]

 the hog, on 2012-June-09, 20:19, said:

I meant 1H of course and this was a mistype. That should have been obvious to everyone. Of course 1NT is 18-20.

As far as being obvious, I don't know what you do and don't know about Polish Club. Not surprised it was a mistype.

[awm]

It seems that this sequence creates a couple issues.

When opener has a weak notrump and responder has something like 4-6, you can't really get out in 1M. You'll end up playing some pretty bad contracts, and opponents may be able to double since it's pretty clear by the time 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT-Pass comes around what has occurred.

You will have some awkward sequences when opener has the strong hand. In standard you might bid 1M-2M-4M; in precision maybe 1♣-1♦-1M-2M-4M. But in Polish club you will get 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT-2x-3M-4M at minimum (giving more information about opener's shape) and if responder bids 2M instead of 3M that could presumably be preference and you'll get an even longer sequence that makes declarer's hand basically an open book.

I begin to see how the Martel defense of "pass with good hands, then double them" can work out well.