[RunemPard]

Hello,

I am thinking about trying out a weak 1NT of 12-14, 13-15, or maybe even just 14-16. Currently we are playing a mostly standard 3355 opening system(w/ inverted raises), 15-17 1NT, standard 2C, multi, and 11-14 TP 6 card majors. I am looking for advice from those who have played weak NT systems about positives and negatives. One of the main reasons I am considering using a weak NT is to allow for minor openings to reflect extra value, but I am not sure how much of an advantage this proves. I am also curious about reply bidding to a 1NT opening and how to effectively show a 15-17 balanced hand using it.

I appreciate all replies,

Thanks!

[nige1]

2/1ers seem to believe that
Kaplan inversion and Flannery belong in the "Natural System" forum but
Weak-notrump belongs in the "Non-Natural System" forum

[RunemPard]

Who cares where I posted..honestly no clue which to put it in. "Natural" is a matter of opinion to begin with! To me "natural" is more of how closely a system is to the original version. Being that a 12-14 NT alters the bidding in various ways, I considered it to be "unnatural". But then again, could this be a "natural" weak NT.

Just want some advice on how to adapt to it.

[awm]

A few thoughts on this:

(1) You'll need to decide whether you open 1NT with a 5-card major. There are arguments that this more costly playing weak notrump, because it's more frequently a partscore hand. However, if you don't open 1NT with a 5-major you will need to think about the range of 1♥-1♠-1NT and opener's rebids over 1♠-1NT.
(2) You may want to consider how opener shows the strong notrump in competition. For example, it is popular to play 1♣-(Pass)-1♠-(2♥)-Dbl as showing the strong notrump rather than as a support double. If you don't use this type of approach, you can easily miss games in competitive sequences like this.
(3) You will want to raise minors more aggressively in competition. For example over 1♣-(2♠) holding a 9-count with 3253 shape, you may want to bid 3♣. This protects opener is he has a strong notrump, and if he doesn't have a strong notrump you are virtually guaranteed a real club fit. Note that this hand pattern is a pretty obvious pass in a strong notrump system.
(4) You may want to consider bypassing majors to rebid 1NT frequently, as there are potential right-siding advantages.
(5) There may be some impact on your treatment of awkward patterns; for example if you are 1453 with a 13-count you might open 1♦ and rebid 1NT in a strong notrump system, but you will effectively have to rebid diamonds (or clubs I guess) in a weak notrump base.
(6) Make sure you know what you're doing if they double 1NT for penalty.

[Cthulhu D]

I'm definately not an expert, and AWM's list is really good.

However, I will say that a 14-16 NT and a 12-14NT are on completely different planets. The system impacts are significantly different - for example the strong NT double is worth a lot less in a 14-16 framework. My biggest thing about a 12-14 NT is make sure you know what you are doing when they bid over your weak NT generally, and not just the penalty double (though that is important). You will open a weak NT a lot and people will bid over it the same amount.

The danger auctions are stuff like 1NT - (2D)* - ?? * Unspecified major. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.

However, the 14-16 NT is great fun and I recommend it a lot. It's 50% more frequent, and lots of people seem to have a brain explosion and treat it as a weak NT(?!) for the purpose of defence as well. The main thing to consider is what are you going to do with 17-19 hands. Jumping to 2NT is extremely rubbish, so playing transfer Walsh is marked. Transfer walsh also causes brain explosions from pairs that do know better.

[straube]

I thought awm and Cthulhu had good comments. I think if you use the weak NT, consider only using it in 1st and 2nd seat. Third seat is a little dangerous because partner may be broke and third and fourth seat a weak NT will likely not let partner participate in the auction. We play 14-16 NT and like how that poses a problem for opponents because it's not very strong or weak and it's difficult for them to decide on a penalty double. In third and fourth seat we move our range up just a point to 15-17 so that responder can be brought into the auction.

[chasetb]

straube, on 2012-May-21, 20:39, said:

I thought awm and Cthulhu had good comments. I think if you use the weak NT, consider only using it in 1st and 2nd seat. Third seat is a little dangerous because partner may be broke and third and fourth seat a weak NT will likely not let partner participate in the auction. We play 14-16 NT and like how that poses a problem for opponents because it's not very strong or weak and it's difficult for them to decide on a penalty double. In third and fourth seat we move our range up just a point to 15-17 so that responder can be brought into the auction.

I will say that Stansby-Martel played a Weak NT except at 3rd seat Vul, but that didn't stop them from getting doubled by Grue-Lall and going -800 during the 2011 Bermuda Bowl. Personally, I play the same NT ranges that Straube does, but I have the agreement that 14-16 is strong. There's been a discussion about NT ranges before on these forums, while they were talking about Precision it applies here as well.

EDIT : the -800 was a 3rd seat Vul 1NT opening

This post has been edited by chasetb: 2012-May-21, 22:09

[Cthulhu D]

chasetb, on 2012-May-21, 20:57, said:

I will say that Stansby-Martel played a Weak NT except at 3rd seat Vul, but that didn't stop them from getting doubled by Grue-Lall and going -800 during the 2011 Bermuda Bowl. Personally, I play the same NT ranges that Straube does, but I have the agreement that 14-16 is strong. There's been a discussion about NT ranges before on these forums, while they were talking about Precision it applies here as well.

I think sometimes you're going to open a weak NT (11-14) or Kamikaze (10-12) and dial out for 1100 and that's just life. An additional point to the above is probably that if you're the sort of person (or your partner is!) that gets hung up for the next several boards when you get an appalling result, you may prefer a method with lower intrinsic risk. It doesn't seem to happen that often though, but I don't have much experience with the 12-14. Does get the blood pumping though when LHO is tanking about saving you from -800 in 2CX.

[Vampyr]

RunemPard, on 2012-May-21, 19:00, said:

To me "natural" is more of how closely a system is to the original version. Being that a 12-14 NT alters the bidding in various ways, I considered it to be "unnatural".

The original version of what, one dares to ask? If the answer to that is "your system", then you have a pretty egotistical view of what constitutes natural bidding!

awm, on 2012-May-21, 19:35, said:

(4) You may want to consider bypassing majors to rebid 1NT frequently, as there are potential right-siding advantages.

I suggest that you consider this quite seriously, because if you don't rebid 1NT you don't have 15-17 balanced.

straube, on 2012-May-21, 20:39, said:

fourth seat a weak NT will likely not let partner participate in the auction.

On the other hand, the opponents will have more trouble participating in the auction. I find that a fourth-seat weak NT gets passed out a gratifying proportion of the time.

[Mbodell]

straube, on 2012-May-21, 20:39, said:

I thought awm and Cthulhu had good comments. I think if you use the weak NT, consider only using it in 1st and 2nd seat. Third seat is a little dangerous because partner may be broke and third and fourth seat a weak NT will likely not let partner participate in the auction. We play 14-16 NT and like how that poses a problem for opponents because it's not very strong or weak and it's difficult for them to decide on a penalty double. In third and fourth seat we move our range up just a point to 15-17 so that responder can be brought into the auction.

Yeah, I think this is a difference of opinion, but a preemptive 1nt in 3rd seat on whatever is the legal minimum to whatever doesn't have game opposite a max pass is pretty effective. You'll go for a number occasionally, but not that often.

[Zelandakh]

The weak 1NT opener itself is (arguably) a small winner. There are hands where you go for a big penalty but these are extremely rare, especially if you have a good runout system (I use modified Spelvic) in place. The more common auctions where you lose are where you bury your fit in a part score battle. However, the 1NT opening usually leaves you reasonably well placed in such part score battles and these are extremely common. As well as sometimes burying your own fit you will also bury the opponents' fit quite often. Because of this the weak NT is probably at its most effective at Love All, followed by Green, Red, and least effective at Game All.

The down side of the weak NT comes not from the opening itself but the knock-on effect it has on other areas of bidding. In particular, if 4th hand speaks by raising the level, Opener needs a way of showing the strong NT hand type. This usually means that double in this spot has to be value-showing and cannot have a more precise meaning such as support. Adam covered this in point #2 but it is worth emphasising that this is not just a system change but quite a serious negative in these auctions.

In these days where Transfer Walsh is so fashionable it is also worth pointing out that playing a weak NT reduces the frequency of your 1♣ opening a fair amount. You could get around that by pushing all 15+ balanced hands into 1♣ but then you not only run afoul of some regulators but also lose the advantage of being able to raise clubs more freely in competition (awm #3). On the other hand you at least reclaim the "strong NT double" after a 1♦ opening.

The end effect in my opinion is that a weak NT is a winner if it fits well into the system style (Acol, strong ♣) but a loser if the system is not harmonious to it (Vanilla 2/1, SA, SEF). There are things you can do with the less harmonious methods to make a weak NT better but if you simply took your generic 2/1 methods and decided to play a weak NT with it, replacing your 12-14 balanced rebid with 15-17, then I do not think the resulting system is particularly good. It will probably be good against weaker players though (especially at MPs) which might give a false impression.

A 14-16 NT on the other hand is quite different. This NT range tends to work extremely harmoniously with 2/1. By contrast it is not good with Acol. What I have seen of this range is that it plays much more similarly to 15-17 than to 12-14. Thus I would not consider it a weak NT range at all.

[Codo]

Most points had been written already.

Just two more thoughts: It has a reason that 5 card majors with strong NT (15-17 or 14-16) are by far the dominating systems on the big tournements (like the Euro 2012). And these reasons are not just- they do what they have always done. So playing a weak NT will be no winner against very competent opps. But maybe your usual opponents are not the Meckwells of the world, so:

Do not underestimate the impact of your complete system including the competetive bidding.
-You named the advantage of the better defined minor suit openings yourself. If you include all 5332 in the weak NT, you gain this advantage over a major suit opening too. Whether this is valuable enough to overcome the disadvatages already named is questionable. I try it with some partners and it seems to be a net gain, despite some 3 Major contracts we had to play instead of 2 in the Major at the other table(s).
-The impact on your competetive bidding is immense. As others pointed out, the usual weak balanced hand is ruled out, so you can compete a lot more agressively then strong NTers. 1 NT is not just constructive, but it is destructive too. Oponents tend to bid with weaker and weaker hands over our 1 in a suit openings, to disrupt our bidding or to get a lead in. They do not do so over 1 NT.
- the impact on your constructive bidding is great too. As partner has shape or points, you can raise much more aggressiv. But be conservative in non fit auction, partner has an unbalanced hand more often then not.
-the problem with showing the strong NT in competetive bidding will not happen that often. But if it does, be prepared, you will lose tons of imps else.

[Free]

In short, when playing weak NT compared to strong NT in a natural system:
- when you open a weak NT, you'll usually do the same or better
- when you open 1 of a suit, you'll usually do the same or worse.
It's a tradeoff.

In non-natural systems it's a different story. You may have to play weak NT (fine by me ) or you have to widen the range or add distributional hands to fit the rest of the system (not as good, but it does the job). In my experience weak NT works very well in non-natural systems.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-22, 01:40, said:

This usually means that double in this spot has to be value-showing and cannot have a more precise meaning such as support.

Many would consider the inability to play support doubles an advantage of the weak NT...

[helene_t]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-22, 01:40, said:

playing a weak NT reduces the frequency of your 1♣ opening a fair amount. You could get around that by pushing all 15+ balanced hands into 1♣ but then you not only run afoul of some regulators but also lose the advantage of being able to raise clubs more freely in competition (awm #3).

You can still raise freely. It is true that you could be in a 2-3 fit but in that case opener will have enough to bid 3NT.

[benlessard]

Quote

The weak 1NT opener itself is (arguably) a small winner....The down side of the weak NT comes not from the opening itself but the knock-on effect it has on other areas of bidding.

Quote

In short, when playing weak NT compared to strong NT in a natural system:
- when you open a weak NT, you'll usually do the same or better
- when you open 1 of a suit, you'll usually do the same or worse.

I Strongly disagree with both of these comments. IMO its exactly the opposite, the main strenght of the weak NT is when you dont open 1Nt. A bal 12-14 hand is the worse hand for competitive purpose the quicker its out of the way the better it is for all other auction.

1m-(2M)-???

Lets your are not broke and are thinking about competing. However ive got a bad news for you your going to have between 8 and 11 pts much more often than a GF hand. If you are thinking about making a neg double,bidding 2NT natural or raising to 3D in those 3 cases the worse hand opener can have is a weak Nt. If you double its going to be tough for opener to pass with a weak Nt and 4 trumps, if he bid 2Nt it wont be fun for him. If he has a 33(43) with no stopper playing into a 4-3 fit wont be fun.

If you bid 2Nt and hit partner with a weak nt where are your tricks coming from ? He possibly have no 5 card suit. If you raise to 3D you better have nice trumps and a stiff because its very possible partner wont be able to ruff anything, also on a bad day he may only have 3 trumps especially after a 1C opening. In short responder requirement to compete safely need to be quite high because opener is favorite to have a 12-14 bal, also the stronger your hand or the more support you have (for partner opening suit) the more likely hes going to be 12-14 bal. Lets say you decide to play it safe and pass. Do you think its going to be easy for partner to make a balancing X with a 12-14 bal ? This is the real strenght of the weak NT its easier for responder to compete when you dont open 1Nt.


What about opener point of view ?

1D--(P)--1S--(2H)
??

do you make a support double with 3343 and a minimum ?
Lets say you have 4351 & 14-16 pts do you feel that you might get it wrong between 2S and missing a game and 3S getting too high ? (Remember if you bid just 2S, partner POV is that you are favorite to have a 12-14 bal. Here the strenght of the weak nt is that when you bid 2S here you are showing extras value or some shapes, if you bid 3S you making a strong suggestion of 4S not just showing some extras. Also you often have the extra bid of 2Nt to show a bal 16+-17 pts.

Playing strong NT
1D--(P)--1S--(2H)
2NT doesnt have the same usefulness at all because its going to be a lot less frequent.

They are of course some sequence that after a 1suit opening it will turn out easier if you are playing a strong NT but they are just way less frequent.

[straube]

Eric Rodwell: I have played the weak notrump . . . but . . . having to play it vulnerable makes me uncomfortable. I know a lot of the theorists who talk about weak notrump say that you are very well placed— if your partner opens 1C, he either has a strong notrump or a shapely hand with clubs. In practice, I have found that in many auctions it is not really that safe. Say you open 1C. It goes a 1S overcall, partner makes a negative double, and the next hand jumps to 3S preemptive [1C-1S-Double-3S-?]. Are you really going to be doubling with just a flat 15 here? The weak notrumpers call a double here the strong notrump double — when you open and then double to show that you have a strong notrump — which can work well at relatively low levels. Let’s say it goes 1D, Pass, 1H, 2C, you will usually be all right to double to show a strong notrump. When the bidding gets more escalated, you might be on 15 opposite 5 with no particular fit. You would then have a problem. If you pass instead of double to show the strong notrump, partner may make an erroneous assumption of what your hand is, perhaps assuming you have an 11 count with clubs.

me now:
In a strong club system, I like opening 1N with 14-16 because it 1) announces a pretty good hand before it gets lost in competition and 2) more often leads to stayman and transfers, etc which means that we are maximizing communication and 3) is safer. When we open 1D it is usually a weak NT and we leave room to find our best (hopefully major) suit fit. Certainly we leave room also for the opponents, but the idea is that we have an opening hand and that the space that we leave is more frequently useful to us.

[nige1]

Eric Crowhurst (RIP) recommended variable notrump: weak non-vul, strong vul. Crowhurst wrote that the non-vul weak notrump was especially effective at match-pointed pairs. He argued that the side that first bids 1N is favourite to win the part-score battle. In practical play, the scoring-table gives the 1N declarer a likely small profit whether it makes or goes down, provided it isn't doubled.

[the hog]

RunemPard, on 2012-May-21, 19:00, said:

Who cares where I posted..honestly no clue which to put it in. "Natural" is a matter of opinion to begin with! To me "natural" is more of how closely a system is to the original version. Being that a 12-14 NT alters the bidding in various ways, I considered it to be "unnatural". But then again, could this be a "natural" weak NT.

Just want some advice on how to adapt to it.

Well I care as does nigel. A weak NT question belongs in the natural forum. Perhaps Ben can move the thread.

[benlessard]

Quote

[1C-1S-Double-3S-?]. Are you really going to be doubling with just a flat 15 here? The weak notrumpers call a double here the strong notrump double — when you open and then double to show that you have a strong notrump — which can work well at relatively low levels. Let’s say it goes 1D, Pass, 1H, 2C, you will usually be all right to double to show a strong notrump. When the bidding gets more escalated, you might be on 15 opposite 5 with no particular fit.

I honestly dont understand here. In this sequence its simply better if you are playing a weak NT, because at least with some of the strong balanced hand you still can find a bid. With all 12-14 you have to pass no matter what is your shape and over your pass partner will still be unsure about your shape. While when you hold a 15-17 bal you can easily pass with the 15 bad 16 and X, bid 3NT or 4H with the good 16-17. There is very little risk at passing a bal 15 without 4H here.