[TWO4BRIDGE]

More thoughts on post # 20 :

For the 1♠ open , since (1) and (2a) always show the 3 4 3 3 shape, lets take the 2H rebid by Opener:

1S - 1NT!
2H - 3NT! or 4C!, both showing the 3 4 3 3 shape and 15-17 or 18,19 respectively

If either auction eventually goes 4NT = RKC key card, it should be 6-Ace ( ♥ & ♠ ).

EDIT: ie because of the double-fit .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2012-May-31, 11:24

[aguahombre]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-31, 08:07, said:

More thoughts on post # 20 :

For the 1♠ open , since (1) and (2a) always show the 3 4 3 3 shape, lets take the 2H rebid by Opener:

1S - 1NT!
2H - 3NT! or 4C!, both showing the 3 4 3 3 shape and 15-17 or 18,19 respectively

If either auction eventually goes 4NT = RKC key card, it should be 6-Ace ( ♥ & ♠ ).

Yes, a good side point. We agree that there are 6 keys whenever: one partner has shown another suit which isn't trump, and the other partner is guaranteed by the auction to have two of that other suit. If there is any possible way of holding less than two of the "side" suit, no 6-card RKC.

[helene_t]

If you start with 1NT, what do you do if opener rebids 2♠ ? I suppose you can just ask for keycards.

If he rebids 2♣ is is more tricky. Lacking a forcing call you will have to ask for keycards but ♣K is not necesarilly a cricial card.

And even if he rebids 2♦ you still have the problem that you can't ask for ♠Q.

[fromageGB]

 mgoetze, on 2012-May-22, 07:33, said:

In general I recommend the following structure:
2♣ (a) invitational with 3 spades, (b) balanced game-force, (c) game-force with 5+ clubs
After 2♣, 2♦ asks...

 mgoetze, on 2012-May-30, 12:11, said:

You can only rebid 2♥ if opener rebids 2♦. Now ask yourself, how often does opener have 4 hearts when it goes 1♠-2♣; 2♦?

As you yourself said earlier, after 2♣ opener DOES usually bid 2♦ to ask. This is essential if you have different options in your 2♣ bid, so it is not solely a GF with long clubs. He will do this whenever he does not have a 55 distributional hand. This means that with any normal hand opener rebids 2♦, and you explore the best contract. Whether opener has 4 hearts or not does not matter. What does matter is that when he does, you find the heart fit.

[fromageGB]

 helene_t, on 2012-May-31, 09:35, said:

If you start with 1NT, what do you do if opener rebids 2♠ ? I suppose you can just ask for keycards.

If he rebids 2♣ is is more tricky. Lacking a forcing call you will have to ask for keycards but ♣K is not necesarilly a cricial card.

And even if he rebids 2♦ you still have the problem that you can't ask for ♠Q.

As, I said, not my methods and with this hand I would not start 1NT, but your comments only apply if you have not agreed a follow-up forcing call, and even if you haven't they don't apply if you use a Kickback variant.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 aguahombre, on 2012-May-31, 09:03, said:

Yes, a good side point. We agree that there are 6 keys whenever: one partner has shown another suit which isn't trump, and the other partner is guaranteed by the auction to have two of that other suit. If there is any possible way of holding less than two of the "side" suit, no 6-card RKC.

I'm not sure I understand your post.
The partnership has shown a double-fit: 5-3 in ♠ and 4-4 in ♥ ... and both partners know it.

[mgoetze]

 fromageGB, on 2012-May-31, 10:09, said:

As you yourself said earlier, after 2♣ opener DOES usually bid 2♦ to ask.

Perhaps you should have made it clear that you are talking about alternative methods rather than standard then. Even though I recommend playing something else, I assume standard in discussions unless mentioned otherwise, i.e. in this case a 2♦ rebid promising 4+ diamonds. FWIW in my methods 1♠-2♣; 2♦-2♥ promises 5+ clubs along with the 4 hearts; the way to find 4-4 heart fits is for opener to bid them after discovering the balanced GF: 1♠-2♣; 2♦-2NT; 3♥.

[Quantumcat]

I have an excellent convention for handling these hands.

A 2♣ response to 1-major shows either a limit raise in the major with 3 cards, a gameforce balanced hand of any strength, or gameforce with clubs.

Opener rebids 2♦ if he would accept the limit raise. Responder rebids 4-major if he had the limit raise, or 2-major with a balanced hand with 3-card support that is gameforce, or 2NT with a gameforce balanced hand, or any other suit if he has clubs (then it is natural with clubs and the other suit).

Opener rebids 2-major if he would not accept a limit raise. Responder passes with the limit raise (staying out of 3-major with an eight card fit), and as above with the other hands.

Opener rebids anything else to show slam interest even opposite the limit raise, natural.

[CSGibson]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-June-02, 01:09, said:

I have an excellent convention for handling these hands.

A 2♣ response to 1-major shows either a limit raise in the major with 3 cards, a gameforce balanced hand of any strength, or gameforce with clubs.

Opener rebids 2♦ if he would accept the limit raise. Responder rebids 4-major if he had the limit raise, or 2-major with a balanced hand with 3-card support that is gameforce, or 2NT with a gameforce balanced hand, or any other suit if he has clubs (then it is natural with clubs and the other suit).

Opener rebids 2-major if he would not accept a limit raise. Responder passes with the limit raise (staying out of 3-major with an eight card fit), and as above with the other hands.

Opener rebids anything else to show slam interest even opposite the limit raise, natural.

I play a version of that. I love it, but it is mid-chart in the ACBL.

[aguahombre]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-31, 11:29, said:

I'm not sure I understand your post.
The partnership has shown a double-fit: 5-3 in ♠ and 4-4 in ♥ ... and both partners know it.

Was merely expanding. On this hand the double fit is known; I was talking about when 6-Keys can be agreed on other auctions.

[fromageGB]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-June-02, 01:09, said:

I have an excellent convention for handling these hands.

A 2♣ response to 1-major shows either a limit raise in the major with 3 cards, a gameforce balanced hand of any strength, or gameforce with clubs.

Opener rebids 2♦ if he would accept the limit raise. Responder rebids 4-major if he had the limit raise, or 2-major with a balanced hand with 3-card support that is gameforce, or 2NT with a gameforce balanced hand, or any other suit if he has clubs (then it is natural with clubs and the other suit).

Opener rebids 2-major if he would not accept a limit raise. Responder passes with the limit raise (staying out of 3-major with an eight card fit), and as above with the other hands.

Opener rebids anything else to show slam interest even opposite the limit raise, natural.

Hey, I like this, nice and simple, and avoids unnecessary risks in 3M. Easily adapt this into my methods - I'll have to check that it is allowed in the UK. Much as I dislike the fetters imposed by my national authority, I think they are perhaps less draconian that those in the USA.

Thank you for sharing.

Edit 4/6/12 - this is allowed by the EBU at level 3 - which in effect means all clubs and anything but novice events.

[Quantumcat]

 CSGibson, on 2012-June-02, 12:07, said:

I play a version of that. I love it, but it is mid-chart in the ACBL.

Really?? What does mid-chart mean for playing tournaments? You aren't allowed to use it in the Novice sections for instance?

 fromageGB, on 2012-June-03, 16:25, said:

Much as I dislike the fetters imposed by my national authority, I think they are perhaps less draconian that those in the USA.

Yeah, don't worry about what you hear about system restrictions in the US - as far as I can tell the ACBL is like the Church and bidding science is like astronomy in Galileo's time.

[CSGibson]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-June-03, 23:45, said:

Really?? What does mid-chart mean for playing tournaments? You aren't allowed to use it in the Novice sections for instance?

Mid-chart is allowed in flight A events, nationally rated events, and top level of knockouts, and any other event where it is advertised ahead of time. Most regionally-rated events like pairs games are general convention chart events, except when they are strati-flighted Ax-BCD.