[jdeegan]

On the JEC "forum" today the dreaded question of Kaplan Inversion versus Flannery versus using nothing at all or maybe something else entirely raised its misshapen, slime-encrusted head. Evidently, some people have been spreading the notion that the Kaplan Inversion has no shortcomings at all. While imho it is the least of evils, esp. at IMPs, it's obvious shortcoming, esp. at MP's is that opener can't play 1NT with a normal 5-3-3-2 distribution and a minimum hand. He can only rebid 1NT with the relatively rare 4-5 Flannery hand. How else to use the 2♦ opener (Multi or weak) is also an issue. I would love to hear your opinion.

[jallerton]

I voted for other: anything apart from Flannery, which is a waste of a 2-level Opener (2♦ or 2♥) except perhaps in 4th seat.

I haven't played Kaplan Inversion for a long time but if you are going to bother to change your system to play it, you should at least play a better structure of Opener's rebids than simply using 1♥-1♠-1NT as showing exclusively the 4-5 in the majors hand.

[fromageGB]

 jdeegan, on 2012-May-19, 16:19, said:

...it's obvious shortcoming, esp. at MP's is that opener can't play 1NT with a normal 5-3-3-2 distribution and a minimum hand.

I assume you mean a x5xx balanced hand with 5 hearts can't bid 1♥ 1♠ 1NT.
We do. This is an important bid you don't want to lose. Playing 2♣ as artificial, we have already given up a natural weak club bid, so we do the same with diamonds and rebid 2♦ to show 4 spades. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea but we like it. An x54x hand rebids 1NT.

[MickyB]

I prefer natural. It is not true that KI and Flannery are two ways to solve the same problem.

KI is useful if -

You can't play a semi-forcing NT [3-card limit raises and invitational single-suiters responding 1NT]
You want to respond 1S with GF balanced hands, leading to full relays
You play Flannery - now 1H:1S, 2D can show 11-13/17+ with hearts, with 2H showing 14-16.

Flannery fits in well with some methods but I don't recommended it in general.

Whether 1H:1S is natural or KI, you should play 1H:1S, 1NT as diamonds [you can include some other hands here too].

[nige1]

Amusing that 2/1 players treat their gadgets like Flannery and Kaplan inversion as "Natural Bidding"

[olien]

I agree with all of the posts which suggest playing transfer-oriented rebids after a KI 1♠ response as follows:

1NT = 4+♦ or BAL
2♣ = 4+♣
2♦ = 6+♥
2♥ = 4+♠ 5+♥ NF
2♠ = natural reverse

There have also been past threads suggesting a structure similar to Gazilli in this auction but, to reflect the difference, I believe it was named bazilli

[awm]

I prefer a method built around a non-forcing (semi-forcing?) 1NT response. I voted for "natural" although I'd play enough methods over these calls (Gazilli etc) that perhaps that isn't the best description. But I'd prefer to avoid both Flannery and Kaplan Inversion.

[mgoetze]

Yeah I was about to ask, which of forcing and nonforcing 1NT counts as "natural" and which counts as "other"? Poorly defined question (especially since KI and Flannery can work well together) and poorly defined answers IMHO.

[steve2005]

 olien, on 2012-May-20, 08:29, said:

I agree with all of the posts which suggest playing transfer-oriented rebids after a KI 1♠ response as follows:

1NT = 4+♦ or BAL
2♣ = 4+♣
2♦ = 6+♥
2♥ = 4+♠ 5+♥ NF
2♠ = natural reverse

There have also been past threads suggesting a structure similar to Gazilli in this auction but, to reflect the difference, I believe it was named bazilli

i like this method- 1NT a bal or 4+ ♦ better than 4♠ hand.
with 4♠ & 5♥ will be like you opened 2♥ Flannery.
and have some chance of playing in 1NT when right.

[jallerton]

 MickyB, on 2012-May-20, 07:04, said:

Whether 1H:1S is natural or KI, you should play 1H:1S, 1NT as diamonds [you can include some other hands here too].

It would be more accurate to say:

"Whether 1H:1S is natural or KI, you could play 1H:1S, 1NT as diamonds [you can include some other hands here too]."

[fromageGB]

 olien, on 2012-May-20, 08:29, said:

I agree with all of the posts which suggest playing transfer-oriented rebids after a KI 1♠ response as follows:

1NT = 4+♦ or BAL
2♣ = 4+♣
2♦ = 6+♥
2♥ = 4+♠ 5+♥ NF
2♠ = natural reverse

There have also been past threads suggesting a structure similar to Gazilli in this auction but, to reflect the difference, I believe it was named bazilli

If you are putting stronger hands through the 2♣ bid, then I don't really see the need for transfers. Reverse your diamond and heart meanings, and it's the same.

However, if 2♣ is natural and weak, as in your case, then transfers give you the ability to show strength with a rebid. But you are then in the dark as to responder's game suitability. An artificial 2♣ rebid with strength (15+ or your choice) allows an escape in 2♥ or a natural 2NT or 3m, so seems better to me.

And actually only your 2♦ bid is a transfer, which needs a 6 card suit, so not very useful.

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2012-May-21, 08:07

[olien]

The structure I posted is similar to what wooldridge and hurd play over a natural 1♠ response. As for the 'bazilli' I referenced, the 1NT rebid includes strong hands

[Cthulhu D]

 olien, on 2012-May-20, 08:29, said:

I agree with all of the posts which suggest playing transfer-oriented rebids after a KI 1♠ response as follows:

I play the above slightly modified.

1NT = 4+♣ or BAL
2♣ = 4+♦
2♦ = 6+♥
2♥ = 4+♠ 5+♥ NF
2♠ = natural reverse

Not sure what I think about KI in general - the only reasonably frequent auction I've noticed gains from is 1H-1NT!-2S-All Pass and it often lets people double 1S as lead directional.

[mikestar13]

 mgoetze, on 2012-May-20, 10:10, said:

<snip> ... since KI and Flannery can work well together ... </snip>

Never heard of this technique, how does it work? I prefer KI except in ACBL GCC events (where only Flannery is legal), but it can't figure out how it could be useful to use both treatments. I am quite willing to be convinced.

[fromageGB]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-May-21, 21:37, said:

Not sure what I think about KI in general - the only reasonably frequent auction I've noticed gains from is 1H-1NT!-2S-All Pass and it often lets people double 1S as lead directional.

I have one regular partner with whom I play KI, and another regular partner who hates the idea, so I can easily say I think it helps greatly. I recall a number of recent times when with no KI we have missed a 5-3 spade contract when responder is weak. Admittedly, if we were playing an artificial opener rebid of 2♦ that showed 3 spades that would not have been a problem, but she likes that to be diamonds.

I think the other benefit of KI is that when RHO comes in, you are in a much better position to support.

[MickyB]

 mikestar13, on 2012-May-21, 22:44, said:

can't figure out how it could be useful to use both treatments.

As I (almost) said above -

1H:1S
1N = 3+D
2C = 3+C
2D = 11-13/17+ 6+H
2H = 14-16 6+H

Alternatively, you could play all of your rebids as natural.

Having five spades is much less frequent than having a forcing NT with 0-4 spades, so there must be a decent case for inverting them.

[MickyB]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-May-21, 21:37, said:

I play the above slightly modified.

1NT = 4+♣ or BAL
2♣ = 4+♦
2♦ = 6+♥
2♥ = 4+♠ 5+♥ NF
2♠ = natural reverse

That's so 2010 I don't know how long Hurd-Wooldridge have played 1NT as diamonds, but playing transfers in this sort of situation has gone out of fashion quite recently on BBF.

1H:1S, 1NT as clubs gains you the ability to bid 2C now to say "I would have passed 2C if you'd bid it"

1H:1S, 1NT as diamonds gains you 2C as a cheap force. A simple use for this would be to play it as "bad preference to either of opener's suits", with direct preference showing good 8-10 or so. I think this is a clear improvement.

I put GF balanced hands through 1S, so I get much more mileage out of this 2C bid - it may be a prelude to a GF relay.