[32519]

In modern versions of Precision, does the “Impossible Negative” still form part of the system? If not, how do modern versions of Precision show 8+ HCP and the 4441 hand pattern with responder after a 1♣ opening? The one thing I have always hated about the “Impossible Negative” is the amount of bidding space it consumes.

Surely to goodness there must be better ways for responder to show a 4441 hand and 8+ HCP?

[akhare]

My recommendation would be to just treat the 4441 as a balanced hand and forget that you ever read something called the "impossible negative".

Of course, you can come up with umpteen schemes if you really cared, including the really simple response:

1C - 1♠ (Various Balanced or 4441) - 1N asks:
....2C: No major
....2D: 4 hearts
....2H: 4 spades
....2S: 4441, min
....2N+: blah

Now, if you really really cared , I would bother with any of the above and simply play straight up symmetric relay responses and solve this and many other problems...

[PrecisionL]

There are a number of treatments (all requiring a good memory for a 3% frequency):

Precision in the 90s, by Rigal: 1♣ - 2NT = any 4441 hand, 3♣ asks for the singleton (bid it, 3NT = ♣)

Precision in the 90s (Advanced), 1♣ - 2♥; Now 2♠ asks for 1-under the singleton

This approach allows the bid of the singleton to be Beta for Controls and a 4-cd suit bid to be RKCB

One Club Complete: 1♣ - 2♥ = 4=1=4=4,

1♣ - 2♠ = 1=4=4=4 8-10 and so on

Danielson Precision:

1♣ - 3♣ = 4=4=4=1 or 4=4=1=4 & 8-11 / 15+ hcp

1♣ - 3♦ = 4=1=4=4 & 8-11 / 15+ hcp

1♣ - 3♥ = 1=4=4=4 & 8-11 / 15+ hcp

1♣ - 3♠ = 4=4=4=1 & 12-14 hcp with 4+ Controls

1♣ - 3NT = 4=4=4=1 & 12-14 hcp with 4+ Controls; and so on ....

[32519]

Having read everything PrecisionL posted, perhaps the “Impossible Negative” isn’t so bad after all. Certainly everything posted is workable but they also consume bidding space (the very thing I hate so much about the Impossible Negative).

After 1♣-1♦-? opener will show a real suit or NT if balanced. At least 50% of the time the suit will be a major. Using the Impossible Negative now is fine. Opener will know where the final contract is heading.

Unfortunately I see a possible serious flaw in the sequence 1♣-1♦-? when responder holds 4441 and 8+ HCP? What must opener do when his real suit is ♦? Is he allowed to pass the 1♦ bid (possibly missing an easy game), or is 1♦ forcing for one round? A wily opponent sitting in fourth seat with some values may be sharp enough to realise what has happened and allow you to play in 1♦ when an easy game was up for grabs.

[gordontd]

 32519, on 2012-May-18, 01:17, said:

Having read everything PrecisionL posted, perhaps the “Impossible Negative” isn’t so bad after all. Certainly everything posted is workable but they also consume bidding space (the very thing I hate so much about the Impossible Negative).

The biggest problem with the Impossible Negative is when there's intervention over it. Then it can be hard to distinguish between a weak hand with support or an Impossible Negative.

 32519, on 2012-May-18, 01:17, said:

After 1♣-1♦-? opener will show a real suit or NT if balanced. At least 50% of the time the suit will be a major. Using the Impossible Negative now is fine. Opener will know where the final contract is heading.

Does a splinter bid now promise an Impossible Negative, or could it be a weaker more shapely hand? And what about when your Impossible Negative bid has extras?

[Zelandakh]

The most common solutions involve using some higher bids for these hands. Which bids to use tends to depend on how many of the lower bids are used for other purposes. Symmetric relay instead splits the hands up into either major shortage or minor shortage and uses specific sequences for these. My approach is a variation of this where

1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 1NT; 2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠; 2NT - 3♥ = 4414
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 1NT; 2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠; 2NT - 3♠ = 4441, min
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 1NT; 2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT = 3-suited with diamond void (4405, 4504, 5404)
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 1NT; 2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♣ = 4450
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 1NT; 2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♦ = 4540
1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 1NT; 2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♥ = 5440, min
1♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ = 3-suited with short spades (1444, 0445, 0454, 0544)
1♣ - 2♠ = 3-suited with short hearts (4144, 4045, 4054, 5044)

As you can see, the scheme is not symmetric. The main modification over the equivalent auctions in (eg TOSR) is the inclusion of 44(32) hands into the 1♥ response which causes a knock-on effect to the 3-suiters with minor shortage. The end effect is for these hands to be slightly worse but for balanced hands to be slightly better. I like this trade off.

[dake50]

In modern versions of Precision, does the “Impossible Negative” still form part of the system? If not, how do modern versions of Precision show 8+ HCP and the 4441 hand pattern with responder after a 1♣ opening? The one thing I have always hated about the “Impossible Negative” is the amount of bidding space it consumes.

Surely to goodness there must be better ways for responder to show a 4441 hand and 8+ HCP?

***
I try the 'Impossible Negative' 1D with 7-12 and less than 3 controls.
Now the splinter-fit on 5-7 is not too far from an 'Impossible Negative'.
4+ controls 4441 starts specific 3-bid immediate to 1C.

[PrecisionL]

 32519, on 2012-May-18, 01:17, said:

Having read everything PrecisionL posted, perhaps the “Impossible Negative” isn’t so bad after all. Certainly everything posted is workable but they also consume bidding space (the very thing I hate so much about the Impossible Negative).

Loss of bidding space is more than compensated for by the exact description of responders hand. In some of the schemes the strength is divided into 2 or 3 ranges. Opener almost always asks for the singleton unless (s)he has a semi-solid or better suit playable opposite a singleton. In addition Opener has the option of using RKCB or Beta depending on his hand.

In some versions of Precision the responses start at 3♣ or higher and don't displace any more important responses.

[32519]

 PrecisionL, on 2012-May-16, 21:21, said:

There are a number of treatments (all requiring a good memory for a 3% frequency):

Precision in the 90s (Advanced), 1♣ - 2♥; Now 2♠ asks for 1-under the singleton

This approach allows the bid of the singleton to be Beta for Controls and a 4-cd suit bid to be RKCB

One Club Complete: 1♣ - 2♥ = 4=1=4=4,

1♣ - 2♠ = 1=4=4=4 8-10 and so on

If I choose either of these methods I must pay the price somewhere else. A popular method I have been using is this:
1♣-2♥ or 2♠ showing 4-7 HCP and a 6-card suit and most (all) of the HCP in the suit bid.

How would you bid these hands types now if I chose to use one of the methods specified above?

[straube]

 32519, on 2012-May-19, 14:53, said:

If I choose either of these methods I must pay the price somewhere else. A popular method I have been using is this:
1♣-2♥ or 2♠ showing 4-7 HCP and a 6-card suit and most (all) of the HCP in the suit bid.

How would you bid these hands types now if I chose to use one of the methods specified above?

You know the answer to that. You're familiar with several varieties of Precision.

[32519]

 gordontd, on 2012-May-18, 03:17, said:

The biggest problem with the Impossible Negative is when there's intervention over it. Then it can be hard to distinguish between a weak hand with support or an Impossible Negative.


Does a splinter bid now promise an Impossible Negative, or could it be a weaker more shapely hand? And what about when your Impossible Negative bid has extras?

This post of yours got me thinking. How about a cue-bid of the intervention suit conveying the message, "My normal response would be 1♦ with my 4441 holding, 8+ HCP. The opposition intervention allows me to show my distribution and HCP holding in a different way now."

In a different thread, it was suggested that after opposition intervention "double" showed 5-7 HCP and a suit bid showed 8+ HCP and a 5-card suit. Now you need some other way to show what you have.

PrecisionL
How does your methods show the 4441 hand 8+ HCP after opposition intervention in second seat?

[straube]

 32519, on 2012-May-28, 05:32, said:

This post of yours got me thinking. How about a cue-bid of the intervention suit conveying the message, "My normal response would be 1♦ with my 4441 holding, 8+ HCP. The opposition intervention allows me to show my distribution and HCP holding in a different way now."

In a different thread, it was suggested that after opposition intervention "double" showed 5-7 HCP and a suit bid showed 8+ HCP and a 5-card suit. Now you need some other way to show what you have.

PrecisionL
How does your methods show the 4441 hand 8+ HCP after opposition intervention in second seat?

Your hand....xxxx x AKxx Qxxx

The bidding....

1C P 1D (3S) P P ?

4S? dbl?

There's been a trend toward the unusual positive and away from the impossible negative and it's to avoid confusion like this. Even in an uncontested auction it can pose problems. For one thing, all of responder's jump shifts have to be assigned to the impossible negative.

1C-1D, 1N-3C for example is a 4-4-4-1 instead of whatever it usually means in your NT structure (invitational clubs? diamond transfer?)

1C-1D, 2S-3N is 1-4-4-4 of 8-21 hcps

It also gets in the way if opener wants to make a gambling 3N bid. 1C-1D, 3N-5S now to show 1-4-4-4?

If you choose to adopt artificial rebids at some point, then you will be cross-purposed...

1C-1D, 1H as artificial 20+

Sure, you have room to show the 4441s here, but this isn't how the bidding should have gone.

1C-16+
1D-usually 0-7
1H-20+
2N-4144 8+

compared to

1C-16+
2H-4144 8+
2S-asks
3C-10-11 hcps

and you could do better.

Since your 1D is high 90s to be 0-7, why not make it 100% and then all of opener's continuations will be arranged to work best against a 0-7.

[the_clown]

A very simple aproach they I like playing is:
1♣-2NT 4441 8+
1♣-3♣ 4414 8+
1♣-3♦ 4144 8+
1♣-3♥ 1444 8+

After that opener can ask for controls by cuebidding responder's short suit, set trumps or sign off in 3N.

[Foxx]

My method of choice is something I call "advance splinters", taken from Wei Precision, where:

1♣ : 2♥ shows 4-1-4-4
1♣ : 2♠ shows 1-4-4-4
1♣ : 3♣ shows 4-4-4-1
1♣ : 3♦ shows 4-4-1-4

The hand strength is 9+ in all cases (the 1♦ response is made with 0-7, or 8 without great distribution). You can pretty much pick your treatment according to whim, because this is a very rare situation.