[CSGibson]

---

This is not quite how the bidding went when I perpetuated this auction, but its a far better sequence then my premature jump to 6 diamonds. Anyway, now what?

[MrAce]

This is pretty sick situation. 3 ♠ doesnt promise ♥ control, so even if he has solid spades (perhaps then he could have bid 4♠ over 2♥) playing 6 ♠ is not so atractive. I think we can make 6 NT with almost all hands that 6 ♠ makes. Otoh i am more worried about grand slam. I dont think pd has ♥ void but he is likely to hold ♥ A.


AKQJxxx
xx
x
KJx

this is the worst hand he can hold without a ♥ control i guess, still 6 NT cold. But i suspect he has ♥ A too. then his spades maybe not as solid as this.

AKJxxxx
Ax
x
KJx


I think overall 6 NT is % bid. With the assumption that he would have started with 4♠ had he held a concrete spade suit. If 4 NT is askinf rkc on spades, i sure would like to use it before doing anything else, maybe pd says he has 3 keycards+ Q, after that he will accept grand try if he has the J too, and not if he doesnt since he already showed AKQ...i dunno, maybe i am dreaming.

[jogs]

3♠? What the heck does a preempt over a preempt show?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jogs, on 2012-May-15, 16:54, said:

3♠? What the heck does a preempt over a preempt show?

Strong .... because you "don't preempt over a preempt " .

[the hog]

jogs, on 2012-May-15, 16:54, said:

3♠? What the heck does a preempt over a preempt show?

3S is not a pre empt. It is a strong hand requiring only one trick for game.

[jogs]

Think the 3♠ bidder needs
♠ AKQJxxx
♥ x
♦ x
♣ Kxxx

Can't have much more. The 2♥ bidder must have something.
Favorite to make 6NT opposite that.
But I really think he doesn't have his bid and you can't make slam.

[Phil]

This is a tough situation. I doubt partner will ever realize the KQJTxx of spade is more valuable than AQxxxxxx. I could keycard or I could try 5N pick a slam. Since 5N really should say - are your spades really that fantastic - I like that call.

Also, if partner has the pure nuts - AKQJxxx + A♥, he can try 6♥.

[han]

To me 3S just shows a good 6-card suit and something like a 16-17 count. AKJxxx Ax x KJxx would be a perfectly fine example for the auction to date.

I don't know a better way to investigate a grand slam than asking for keycards. If partner has ♠AKQ ♥A ♣K then I will bid 7NT. I will never play in spades.

The Hog wrote:


3S is not a pre empt. It is a strong hand requiring only one trick for game.


What you are describing sounds like a 4S bid.

[Cyberyeti]

han, on 2012-May-16, 02:52, said:

To me 3S just shows a good 6-card suit and something like a 16-17 count. AKJxxx Ax x KJxx would be a perfectly fine example for the auction to date.

I don't know a better way to investigate a grand slam than asking for keycards. If partner has ♠AKQ ♥A ♣K then I will bid 7NT. I will never play in spades.

The Hog wrote:


3S is not a pre empt. It is a strong hand requiring only one trick for game.


What you are describing sounds like a 4S bid.

Agree with Han, sort of strong jump overcall type hand. However we have 18 points, partner almost certainly has at least 15 opener has 6, card placing shouldn't be hard, what can opener have where 6N doesn't have play that he'd open 2♥ ?

[han]

I thought we were talking about how to find out whether we have a grand.

[Cyberyeti]

han, on 2012-May-16, 06:46, said:

I thought we were talking about how to find out whether we have a grand.

Well I think if partner has AKQJxx, Ax, xx, Kxx he might be up to bidding it. What can we be bidding 6N on without investigation ? We will miss it opposite AKJxxx, Ax, Jx, KJx though.

[han]

The only examples that I can see where we might have a grand but won't find it after keycards is when we are missing the spade king but nothing else. However, we can't find those grands in any other way, and we have no way to investigate whether the diamonds will run.

It seems most practical to me to ask for keycards, bid 6NT if we miss 1, and try for 7 if we miss none.

[Fluffy]

han, on 2012-May-16, 08:22, said:

The only examples that I can see where we might have a grand but won't find it after keycards is when we are missing the spade king but nothing else. However, we can't find those grands in any other way, and we have no way to investigate whether the diamonds will run.

It seems most practical to me to ask for keycards, bid 6NT if we miss 1, and try for 7 if we miss none.

Its possible to construct hands where 6♠ makes and 6NT fails, but there is no way to find out, so I think your general approach is best.

[MrAce]

It depends on agreements, but i am interested in people's opinion about some specific agreements about the 3♠ and 4♠ bids over 2♥

I personally think, as i wrote previously, when both bids are available one of them should show a broken suit while other one shows a concrete.

[Fluffy]

I though at first that 3♠ showed some doubt about strain, but 4♠ had it clear. But since 3♠ is non forcing it is not enterilly obvious that this works.

From what I've read on the forums last 2 years or so I buy that best players just play 4♠ is stronger than 3♠, nothing more


going deeper, I think there is a double+show suit avaible against preempts, only when you hold spades. This would mean that 3♠/4♠ is different from 3♥/4♥

[Phil]

Overall I would say 3♠ has more strength, but 4♠ has more spades.

[rduran1216]

Phil, on 2012-May-16, 14:43, said:

Overall I would say 3♠ has more strength, but 4♠ has more spades.

I agree with this completely. Honestly 3S shows a mountain to me, idk how partner can have a mountain without AKQJxxx and probably the heart A, but who knows.

His hand could very well be AKQJxxx - xx KJxx, but then again u may just bid 4S with that. The more I think about this hand, the less likely I think it is that we can reasonably explore for 7. Id just bid 6NT

[CSGibson]

---

Partner had something like this (the spots are approximate) and decided that it was too spade oriented for a leaping Mike (agree?)

[phil_20686]

Im not sure I am 100% behinds 3S with this hand. Should be like 14-16 with 6 v good spades. This is a touch light, but that is not my main objection, its that I am jumping on a hand where partner is bound to be bidding diamonds. If I bid 3S then I can never get the clubs in. Its a good hand for 2S, but not off the scale, and the chance to get the clubs in makes it worth it imo.

[gszes]

bid 6n

if p is looking at AKQJxx A(x) xx(x) Kxx

and fails to bid 7n get a new partner its that simple
they do not trust your bidding. This pays off to the
preempt when p has a heart void and either 7d or 7s
is the right place but we have no way to explore for
that.