[Trinidad]

barmar, on 2012-May-17, 10:41, said:

There's something to be said for being more vigilant against teenage offenders, since these are formative years.

There's something to be said for being more vigilant against adult offenders, since not only do they offend, they also serve as role models for teenagers (and smaller children).

Rik

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2012-May-17, 10:41, said:

There's something to be said for being more vigilant against teenage offenders, since these are formative years.

There is something to be said for having faith in their ability to do better. I greatly appreciate some guidance I received.

[Trinidad]

This morning, I did my grocery shopping with my wife. (We have the day off here.) When I tried to enter the store with my shopping cart, the store entrance was blocked by a group of 7 senior citizens, who were discussing their health and their grandchildren in a loud voice. And yes, they were standing right in front of the store entrance. When I asked them whether they could let me through, they ignored me completely. Finally, they moved over a little bit, so that I and the people behind me could just pass with our shopping carts. But, other than that, they just kept hanging in front of the entrance.

If these would have been 15 year old boys, discussing their school teachers or -heaven forbid- the perceived loseness of some girl they know, the police would have been called long before. (And, here in The Netherlands, if these guys would have been ethnically moroccan, the police would have even arrived already.)

I don't know why this is, but I find that, generally speaking, old people are a lot less tolerant towards young people than young people are towards old people. You would think that it would be easier for old people to remember when they were young than it would be for young people to envision their lifes when they are old.

Maybe I will understand this when I am old myself.

Rik

[mike777]

Good God this sounds horrible...how did you ever survive.


maybe next time try shooting your way through.


I mean 7 old people in front of the grocery store, what a horrible life.

[kenberg]

My reaction to Trinindad's note is far more favorable than Mike's. Trini's note fits in well with what I feel is my primarily emotional response to the mosquito approach.


I was a pain in the butt when I was seventeen, no doubt about it. I think I have learned something in the fifty-six years since then. But a guy can still learn better than to block the entryway to a store chatting with a bunch of other oldies.

[barmar]

Trinidad, on 2012-May-18, 03:10, said:

I don't know why this is, but I find that, generally speaking, old people are a lot less tolerant towards young people than young people are towards old people. You would think that it would be easier for old people to remember when they were young than it would be for young people to envision their lifes when they are old.

It's been going on for as long as recorded history, and probably long before that. There are quotes from ancient Greece, complaining about the unruly younger generation. Some of them sound exactly like they could have been said by people in the 50's and 60's about the kids and rock & roll music.

Elderly people probably think that they've earned respect from living their lives, bringing up children, doing whatever they did in their jobs, possibly fighting in wars, etc. "Respect your elders" is something children are always taught.

Both young and old people think they know best, but older people can refer to their life experience as conferring their wisdom, while young people have little to justify their feelings.

[blackshoe]

1. Respect has to be earned. Just getting old doesn't do the job.
2. It's also a two way street.
3. Ideally, everyone should respect everyone else, except for those few who demonstrate (perhaps by standing around yakking while blocking a store entrance) that they don't deserve it.

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2012-May-18, 16:40, said:

1. Respect has to be earned. Just getting old doesn't do the job.

Most people who've gotten old did things along the way. As long as they haven't been total assholes, criminals, etc., they've probably done things to earn respect (I listed a few things above).

[Trinidad]

mike777, on 2012-May-18, 07:16, said:

Good God this sounds horrible...how did you ever survive.


maybe next time try shooting your way through.


I mean 7 old people in front of the grocery store, what a horrible life.

The point is not that this was horrible. The point is that you wouldn't have written this sarcastic reply if it would have been a group of 15 year old boys, behaving exactly the same.

I was not irritated, not even annoyed that I needed to wait. And my life was certainly not in danger. Thank you for worrying.

However, if this would have been a group of 15 year olds, this behavior would have annoyed and irritated everybody who was waiting. I am sure that somebody in line would have gotten aggressive (shooting we don't do in The Netherlands). And to top it off, the youngsters would get the blame.

The key in this discussion is not the behavior of the old folks. It is about how different we react when young people behave exactly the same.

Rik

[kenberg]

This young/old business is complex. It's an article of faith with me that most young people want their lives to go well, they are trying to figure out what that means, and they appreciate the occasional useful guidance. I don't expect that my way of living will change much in the next few years. Eventually deterioration will set in, fast or slow, and we will have to deal with it. My wife, who was always quite active, is having arthritis problems. We will cope. But fundamentally, my approach to life is the same now as it was five years ago. But between 14 and 19 I changed a great deal.

Young people need to discover what is possible, what is expected, and how to balance it all. Adults tell young people all sorts of things, not all of it is realistic. When I started college at a large state school, I was sometimes asked how I felt about the size and anonymity. I loved it. My high school teachers had all sorts of opinions about me. My college professors much less so. A great improvement, from my viewpoint, although I was and am grateful to my high school math teacher who helped me get a scholarship.

With regard to the school playground: I would not rule out the possibility of getting the young people to stop trashing the place, if indeed it is the young who are doing it. They may well have sisters and brothers who are going to that school. A little thought and a little conversation might do far more good than the mosquito. And by the way, whoever it is doing whatever they are doing there, they probably do not say "Oh, I was going to go trash the playground but now that they have the mosquito there I will go home and study algebra".

[barmar]

I don't think it really matters much that the mosquito doesn't affect adults. Since when have you heard of adults hanging out in playgrounds and making mischief? When adults want to congregate and drink, they go to one of their homes or to bars. Kids go to playgrounds, beaches, or other unsupervised areas because they can't legally go to bars and their parents usually won't let them drink at home.

And in general, teenagers aren't as responsible as adults -- it's something that comes with maturity. So when these teenagers hang out and get drunk, they sometimes get rowdy and cause damage. I'm not saying this never happens with adults -- barfights do happen, although I suspect less so in real life than in movies and TV -- but I think statistics show that kids are more prone to it.

If teenagers cause most of the vandalism, it makes sense to design protection against them.

[Elianna]

Honestly, if there are tones that older people can hear too. If they used these tones, I would be fine with that, too, as a way to keep everyone away.

[luke warm]

barmar, on 2012-May-19, 11:06, said:

If _______ cause most of the ________, it makes sense to design protection against them.

hmmm... you might be on to something there

[Winstonm]

kenberg, on 2012-May-18, 08:07, said:

My reaction to Trinindad's note is far more favorable than Mike's. Trini's note fits in well with what I feel is my primarily emotional response to the mosquito approach.


I was a pain in the butt when I was seventeen, no doubt about it. I think I have learned something in the fifty-six years since then. But a guy can still learn better than to block the entryway to a store chatting with a bunch of other oldies.

My solution would be the Blazing Saddles Gambit - build an identical store front miles away from the real store, and put up cut-out placards of other old people so it looks like others are gathered at the front of the store. When the real old people ride into town, set off the dynamite.

[blackshoe]

barmar, on 2012-May-18, 17:00, said:

Most people who've gotten old did things along the way. As long as they haven't been total assholes, criminals, etc., they've probably done things to earn respect (I listed a few things above).

Sure. And I would not disrespect someone just because I don't know what's he's done to earn respect. However, they're "on probation" so to speak.

[onoway]

barmar, on 2012-May-17, 10:41, said:

There's something to be said for being more vigilant against teenage offenders, since these are formative years.

If these are the formative years then what message is this teaching? That it's ok to target and do nasty things to people just because they belong to a certain age group?

Wasn't there a movie a few years back about anyone over the age of 60 or so being considered a drag on society and therefor should be "put down?" (or recycled or something... I heard about it but didnt see it.) It's only a rational (if extreme) extension of this. Various wars have amply demonstrated how easy it is to promote the targetting of whatever group, to the point of genocide. Is this being ok the message we want to instill in youngsters?

[mike777]

onoway, on 2012-May-22, 09:55, said:

te name='barmar' timestamp='1337272900' post='639030']
There's something to be said for being more vigilant against teenage offenders, since these are formative years.
If these are the formative years then what message is this teaching? That it's ok to target and do nasty things to people just because they belong to a certain age group?

Wasn't there a movie a few years back about anyone over the age of 60 or so being considered a drag on society and therefor should be "put down?" (or recycled or something... I heard about it but didnt see it.) It's only a rational (if extreme) extension of this. Various wars have amply demonstrated how easy it is to promote the targetting of whatever group, to the point of genocide. Is this being ok the message we want to instill in youngsters?

It would seem easier to install it in younger folks. Us old folks are too set in our ways.

Also in general most killing in wars and outside of wars are done by youngsters rather than retired folks.
The younger folks just seem to be more willing or able to do this than older folks. Maybe because we are too busy chatting and blocking store fronts.


as far as the movie I think the cut off age was 30. Get rid of anyone over 30 to save the planet and resources.

Most health care costs are in the "last 6 months" so this may be one area(age group) to look at to keep costs down and demand for health care down. i know euthanasia is becoming more accepted in society. I am not saying youngsters would demand this, sometimes just saying nothing or turning away is enough in society.

[ArtK78]

mike777, on 2012-May-22, 12:46, said:

It would seem easier to install it in younger folks. Us old folks are too set in our ways.

Also in general most killing in wars and outside of wars are done by youngsters rather than retired folks.
The younger folks just seem to be more willing or able to do this than older folks. Maybe because we are too busy chatting and blocking store fronts.


as far as the movie I think the cut off age was 30. Get rid of anyone over 30 to save the planet and resources.

Most health care costs are in the "last 6 months" so this may be one area(age group) to look at to keep costs down and demand for health care down. i know euthanasia is becoming more accepted in society. I am not saying youngsters would demand this, sometimes just saying nothing or turning away is enough in society.

Logan's Run. In the film, the age is 30, but in the book it is 21.

[barmar]

onoway, on 2012-May-22, 09:55, said:

Wasn't there a movie a few years back about anyone over the age of 60 or so being considered a drag on society and therefor should be "put down?" (or recycled or something... I heard about it but didnt see it.) It's only a rational (if extreme) extension of this. Various wars have amply demonstrated how easy it is to promote the targetting of whatever group, to the point of genocide. Is this being ok the message we want to instill in youngsters?

That's only a problem if you think people can't tell the difference between a deterring noise and mass murder. I give them a little more credit than that.

[kenberg]

onoway, on 2012-May-22, 09:55, said:

Wasn't there a movie a few years back about anyone over the age of 60 or so being considered a drag on society and therefor should be "put down?" (or recycled or something...

I guess the movie that comes to mind for me is the Sound of Music. where Julie Andrews explains to Christopher Plummer that she definitely will not be answering to a whistle.


Once while a cop was forcefully leading me by the arm away from some ruckus (details will not be provided) he said "Kind of old for tihs sort of thing, aren't you son?". I gave that some thought and decided he was right. This sort of simple personal interaction did something for me that a ratty noise would not. With ratty noises you just move on to somewhere else. Given that this is the town doing this at the school, I doubt that they are actually reducing town troubles. They are relocating town troubles.