[straube]

Strong NT setting...

Is there an expert consensus/trend on whether 1N (2M) dbl should be penalty or takeout? Does it depend on whether 2M is hearts or spades?

1N P P (2M) dbl?

Should this be takeout or penalty? Opener is sitting behind overcaller and just might have the goods for a penalty double here.

1N (2M) P P dbl?

Seems like this should be takeout...but if 1N (2M) dbl is penalty, then a takeout double by opener is redundant.

[Phil]

1. 1N - (2M) - x is takeout.

2. 1N - (p) - p - (2M); x = ? I haven't made this call a lot. Responder can be a broke, and responder knows more about opener's hand than v.v..

3. 1N - (2M) - p - (p); x is takeout.

[straube]

Phil, on 2012-May-11, 09:50, said:

1. 1N - (2M) - x is takeout.

2. 1N - (p) - p - (2M); x = ? I haven't made this call a lot. Responder can be a broke, and responder knows more about opener's hand than v.v..

3. 1N - (2M) - p - (p); x is takeout.

1N P P (2M) seems like it should be penalty (and very rare) for reasons you cite. Also, if it is takeout, then responder would be sitting below overcaller.

[JLOGIC]

All takeout

[JLOGIC]

Sometimes you have a maximum 1N opener with 2 small of their suit and you will always want to X after 1N p p 2M. You guys are overthinking this one. You don't need a penalty X. I cannot imagine passing over 1N p p 2H with AQxx xx Axx AKxx and my hand doesn't need to be that good for me to be very sad passing 2H there. Yes partner could have ZERO POINTS and 3433, but that risk is always there with any takeout X, it is overwhelmingly likely to turn out well if you can make a takeout double there because partner often will have some values, or 4 spades, or a 5 card minor.

This post has been edited by JLOGIC: 2012-May-11, 10:09

[JLOGIC]

Meanwhile if I do ever hold Axx AQT9 AQx Jxx I really will be fine just passing over 1N p p 2H lol. Imagine I double for pen (which pretty much says I got them in my own hand mainly with trumps) and LHO runs to 2S, I would again be very sad. Or if they just stripped out the hand and endplayed me and made because I doubled them in a partial with 3433. And this hand type must be far less likely than the other hand type since I don't usually have 4 trump tricks in the suit they bid compared to 2 small.

[Phil]

Perfect thanks JL.

[straube]

Phil, on 2012-May-11, 10:25, said:

Perfect thanks JL.

ditto.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Meanwhile if I do ever hold Axx AQT9 AQx Jxx I really will be fine just passing over 1N p p 2H lol.

Partner will reopen often anyway.

As to those sequences there was some debate as to:

1N - p - p - dbl (t/o, major fits, 10+hcp)
p - 2H - dbl

With one very strong polish player/theorist advocating penalty here as one can bid 2S with 4 spades (first pass denied 5 spades). I think he got it wrong and it should be t/o (for example 6-7pc and 3-2-4-4) but it's probably the only close sequence of the kind and all other doubles should be t/o's.

[rduran1216]

I honestly think it depends on the calibur of the field. There are several top strat players in LA that overcall with such trash over strong no-trump that I'd be remissed to give up a penalty double in direct seat. I agree with the consensus on the others, but unless I'm playing against actual experts I'm not giving away the penalty double, which is responsible for more 1400's than Biggest Loser weigh-ins.

[Fluffy]

along Duran lines I think penalty double is more useful in beginner fields and that's what I teach to my students. But at some point you have to switch to take out. I double a lot for take out being the 1NT opener at MPs.