[32519]

Playing 2/1, in the following sequence e.g. 1♦-2♣-2♠, does the 2♠ bid constitute a reverse bid or is opener merely bidding out his shape now in search of the best spot?

[G_R__E_G]

 32519, on 2012-May-09, 14:32, said:

Playing 2/1, in the following sequence e.g. 1♦-2♣-2♠, does the 2♠ bid constitute a reverse bid or is opener merely bidding out his shape now in search of the best spot?

That's actually a matter of partnership agreement. There are some that like to play that it still shows reverse values and some prefer that it's bidding out shape. The latter form seems to be the most popular amongst advanced+ players these days. Either one works, just make sure that you are on the same page as your partner.

[blackshoe]

A reverse is a two level bid at your second turn in a suit which is higher ranking than your first bid suit. That's the definition. In systems like SA where a 2/1 response is not GF, a reverse shows extra values, because you are forcing partner, who may have only 10 points or so, to bid at the three level if he wants to show preference for your first suit. This principle obviously doesn't apply when the 2/1 response is GF, but a two level bid at your second turn in a suit which is higher ranking than your first bid suit is still a reverse. If you decide that in your methods a reverse need not show extra values, that's fine, but please, please, PLEASE do not tell people "we don't play reverses" or the like.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

If playing 2/1 GF, then both of the openers below will make a standard rebid of 2S after 1H - 2C( or 2D ) :

1)
♠ Q x x x
♥ A K J x x
♦ Q x
♣ x x

2)
♠ A K Q x
♥ A K J x x
♦ x x
♣ x x

[bluecalm]

It's only matter of partnership agreement but you better have some relays and good system available if you bid it without extras.
After 1D - 2C it should be simple:
2D = 5+diamonds
2H/2S = reverse, could be good 14 maybe
2N = 4 diamonds

You can use some jumps for 4-4-4-1 hands here if you are not comfortable bidding 2N with them.

Quote

If playing 2/1 GF, then both of the openers below will make a standard rebid of 2S after 1H - 2C( or 2D ) :

Standard you say ? Maybe better would be: "in my area people are used to bidding 2S with both of those hands". Again if you bid 2S here in full 11-22 range you will probably not recover even with good system (that's why Lauria Versace changed to 1H - 2C - 2H being 5-4 majors to have one more step in relays) and you will regularly be on 5 level trying to discover opener's range.

[gordontd]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-09, 16:22, said:

If playing 2/1 GF, then both of the openers below will make a standard rebid of 2S after 1H - 2C( or 2D ) :

Not if you've agreed that reverse bids show extra.

[Fluffy]

If I remember correctly the consensous in a similar thread not so long ago was that 2x reverse (IE, 2♠) was best played as shape out and 3x (non jump) as showing extra. Just because of espace consuming.

You can play wahtever you want. And being comfortable is IMO far more important that what is techinically best.

For what its worth, I don't even play 1♦-2♣ game forcing on my 2/1 system.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 bluecalm, on 2012-May-09, 16:29, said:

It's only matter of partnership agreement but you better have some relays and good system available if you bid it without extras.

I agree

[jillybean]

This.

 mikeh, on 2007-April-22, 20:27, said:

Warning: the following discussion is not entirely suitable for the B/I thread

The rebid issue after 1♦ 2♣ is a theoretical quagmire in standard methods. Established expert partnerships usually develop special agreements for it. I know of several approaches: Richie Riesig has a good one. My preference is actually close to what JB suggested.

I use the 2♦ rebid by opener as essentially a noise: it may well only be on a 4 card suit, if opener is unable to make any other call within the confines of the method. This is, obviously, less than perfect, but there is no perfect, simple method here.

2Major is about a King more than a minimum... so, say a working 15 count, and guarantees 4=5 or better shape.

2N is balanced, with both majors stopped, and at least 2♣s. It does not deny a 4 card major, but if we have one, we are 4432 shape with a weak notrump hand.. this way, if responder reverses into a 4 card major at the 3-level, and catches opener with a raise, a lot is known about opener's hand (and opener can cue en route to 4Major with some hands)

2♦, the catchall, is not necessarily a minimum, alho as a matter of practice it often is, if bid with only 4 or 5 ♦s.

For those who play that opener should rebid a 4 card major on all habds possessing one, some my objections have already been voiced by earlier posts.

If we are playing SAYC, then 1♦ 2♣ has not yet established a gf. We need some way of doing so, and it will sometimes be opener who has to make that announcement. Since 2♣ promises 10+ hcp, it makes sense that opener have 15 or the playing equivalent to gf.. and this is one very cogent reason why opener's rebid of 2Major should show that strength: it creates a gf. If it did not, then the partnership will often be floundering on the next round. Responder, with gf values and a strong ♣ suit, cannot rebid 3♣ over 2major, if 2major could be a minimum, since opener may pass.. so does he have to invent an abominable 4th suit forcing?? Imagine: 1♦ 2♣ 2♠ 3♥.... with 3♥ a noise... we have destroyed an enormous amount of bidding space and yet have exchanged very little information!

Now, playing 2/1, particuarly a style in which 2♣ is gf, at least eliminates that difficulty. But 2/1 has its own areas of difficulty: especially with strong but not huge hands facing equally strong but not huge hands. Thus it is not uncommon for 2/1 players to reach 3N with 16 opposite 16, when opener was offshape for 1N (if playing strong notrumps). 1♦ 2♣ 2♠.. .if responder knows that this promises extras, then he will not be afraid to probe beyond 3N... and 3N is a kind of bidding trap for bridge players with no major suit fit. If 2♠ is wide-range, then responder will be leery of reaching 4N on 12 opposite 16... yes, it may make, but the cost of going down 1 in a voluntarily bid 4N makes most of us cringe.

I could go on... but I have some work to do.

[the hog]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-09, 16:22, said:

If playing 2/1 GF, then both of the openers below will make a standard rebid of 2S after 1H - 2C( or 2D ) :

1)
♠ Q x x x
♥ A K J x x
♦ Q x
♣ x x

2)
♠ A K Q x
♥ A K J x x
♦ x x
♣ x x

No Don, they will not necessarily bid 2S on your first example.
We have been through this many many times. Some players will bid 2S on the first example because for them the reerse shows no extra values; many, (the majority?), will bid 2H or 2NT because for them 2S does show extra values. Both sets are playing 2/1, but their agreements are different. For me the first one is an obvious 2H bid.

[32519]

 G_R__E_G, on 2012-May-09, 14:39, said:

That's actually a matter of partnership agreement. There are some that like to play that it still shows reverse values and some prefer that it's bidding out shape. The latter form seems to be the most popular amongst advanced+ players these days. Either one works, just make sure that you are on the same page as your partner.

My understanding of 2/1 in the auction posted 1♦-2♣, 2♣ doesn’t deny a 4-card major. All you are doing is establishing a 2/1 100% GF sequence – no exceptions.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to first bid out your shape? Once that is known, either partner with extra values will already have a fairly good idea where the final contract belongs. To show slam interest, the partner with extra values can continue with Serious/Non-Serious 3NT? Where no 4-4 or 5-3 trump fit can be found, you are headed for a NT contract. That should become evident during the auction.

[gordontd]

 32519, on 2012-May-09, 23:48, said:

Once that is known, either partner with extra values will already have a fairly good idea where the final contract belongs. To show slam interest, the partner with extra values can continue with Serious/Non-Serious 3NT? Where no 4-4 or 5-3 trump fit can be found, you are headed for a NT contract.

So how do you show extras in that latter case?

[the hog]

1H 2C
2H 2S
3S

Have I not shown my shape? I will not have 6H and 4S because that would give me a 6421/6430 shape. Would I not splinter over 2S?

I have shown 5H 4S and a min. in my methods. As I have not bid 4S I have also not got a picture bid and so have a control or some cards in the minors. With Kxxx AKJxx xx xx This is a picture bid of 4S.

[32519]

 gordontd, on 2012-May-10, 01:48, said:

So how do you show extras in that latter case?

I have heard many experts say they believe Non-Serious 3NT to be superior to Serious 3NT. So in the auction posted in the OP:

Possible Auction 1:
1♦-2♣ (Establishing a GF but not denying a 4-card major)
2♠ (Patterning out, not a reverse)
3♠ (4-card support)
3NT (Non-Serious, no extra values)
?
Signing off or keeping the auction alive will now depend on whether responder has extra values or not. With extra values, cue-bidding will begin.

Possible Auction 2:
1♦-2♣-2♠-3♠
?
Opener with extra values now starts cue-bidding, bypassing 3NT which would be Non-Serious.

[gordontd]

"The latter case" is when you don't have a fit. Sure, it's easy enough when you do.

[helene_t]

 32519, on 2012-May-09, 23:48, said:

To show slam interest, the partner with extra values can continue with Serious/Non-Serious 3NT?

Only if we locate a major suit fit which we won't do very often after 1♦-2♣. If we locate a minor suit fit (or no fit at all) then 3NT would be a natural bid.

[y66]

BWS2001:

Quote

Opener’s reverse of the form one diamond — two clubs — two of a major does not promise extra values.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 32519, on 2012-May-09, 14:32, said:

Playing 2/1, in the following sequence e.g. 1♦-2♣-2♠, does the 2♠ bid constitute a reverse bid or is opener merely bidding out his shape now in search of the best spot?

In answer to your question: Opener is now in search of the best spot -- 1st priority to find a 4-4 Major fit if one exists - - regardless of strength.

For the above auction where 2C! = GF, it does NOT deny a 4 card major.
The entire 2-level is available to search for a 4-4 Major fit.
Opener's rebid:
2H would show 4 cards ♥ and could have 4 cards ♠ as well.
2S = 4 cards ♠ and denies 4 cards ♥.

If a Major fit is found, it will be at the 3-level with Responder's bid.
Then Cuebidding and Serious ( or non--serious ) 3NT by Opener could show extras ( or not ) .

If NO Major fit is found, Opener w/extras can bid 4NT ( Quant ) over 3NT .

[Stephen Tu]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-10, 07:00, said:

In answer to your question: Opener is now in search of the best spot -- 1st priority to find a 4-4 Major fit if one exists - - regardless of strength.

For the above auction where 2C! = GF, it does NOT deny a 4 card major.
The entire 2-level is available to search for a 4-4 Major fit.

If NO Major fit is found, Opener w/extras can bid 4NT ( Quant ) over 3NT .

The argument against this is that opener cannot distinguish between "a lot extra" (18-19), vs. "a little extra" (16-17). And in the latter case there are more annoying instances where 4nt goes down 1. Same for responder when opener is forced to bid 3nt first on a wide range.

Also, it's not like failing to reverse removes your ability to find 4-4 major fits; after 1d-2c-2d, one still has a ton of space available. Also, you might want to consider what use you are going to put for auction 1d-2c-2d-2s-3s; how does this differ from auction 1d-2c-2s-3s if reverse does not show extra? Does first auction show 5d and latter deny 5d? Does first auction show 6? Do you never use first auction which seems waste of a possible sequence? How about an auction like 1d-2c-2nt-3s-4s?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Stephen Tu, on 2012-May-10, 08:27, said:

Also, it's not like failing to reverse removes your ability to find 4-4 major fits; after 1d-2c-2d, one still has a ton of space available. Also, you might want to consider what use you are going to put for auction 1d-2c-2d-2s-3s; how does this differ from auction 1d-2c-2s-3s if reverse does not show extra? Does first auction show 5d and latter deny 5d? Does first auction show 6? Do you never use first auction which seems waste of a possible sequence? How about an auction like 1d-2c-2nt-3s-4s?

1D - 2C! ( GF )
2D = 1st priority is to show 5+♦suit; does not deny 4 card Major; strength unknown ( as you say, plenty of room to find a 4-4 Major fit ) .

1D - 2C!
2M = 4 cards M; denies 5 cards ♦; denies reverse SHAPE ( the exception is the rare 5M/6d hand where Opener will make a 2nd M bid ); strength unknown

1D - 2C!
2NT = denies 5 cards ♦; denies 4 cards M; denies 4 cards ♣ [ must be 3 3 4 3 ] .