[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♣    Pass  1♠
 Dbl   1NT   2♦    3♦
 Pass  3NT   Pass  4♠
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Hi,
Confused again, playing with pick up partner (expert). 3♦ alerted and explained as "cue". (from review of movie afterwards).
Should I have bid 4♣ ?

tyia
jillybean

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Nov 4 2004, 11:59 PM, said:

Confused again, playing with pick up partner (expert). 3♦ alerted and explained as "cue". (from review of movie afterwards).
Should I have bid 4♣ ?

Yes. Your partner's looking for slam, and needs to know where your stoppers are. So 4♣, showing a club stop but not a heart stop (you'd have bid the hearts first since they're cheaper), would show your hand perfectly.

I made up a name for what your partner was doing- I call it a "courtesy" slam try. He didn't seriously expect that you have slam, but he decided to show his hand fully just in case you had a better hand than you showed (say, AKxx in hearts and clubs). Probably no matter what you said, he was going to bid 4♠, and he'd trust you to bid on if your hand looked slammish.

Just my opinion- I'm certainly no expert.

[the hog]

Jilly your partner has a huge hand opposite your opening bid - 8 tricks in her own hand. She was hardly making a so called courtesy cue, this was a genuine slam try. This hand opposite gives you a finesse for 6S
xx
ATx
xxx
AKxx

Anything better and 6 is in the refrigerator.

A better bid than 3D woud have been 4D which many people play as an "auto splinter". Yes you should definitely have cue bid. Never mind you got to to a good contract.

Ron

[jillybean]

My 1nt rebid has shown a min 2♠, do I assume we are going to play in ♠?
If my partner had used "auto splinter", without other controls I could then sign off in 4♠?

thanks

[the hog]

jillybean2, on Nov 5 2004, 03:44 PM, said:

My 1nt rebid has shown a min 2♠, do I assume we are going to play in ♠?
If my partner had used "auto splinter", without other controls I could then sign off in 4♠?

thanks

Yes that's right. If he bid 4D he would be showing a very good 6+S suit and a singleton or D void. You could easily bid 4S with xx.

Ron

[Flame]

Partner's 3d isnt a control showing cue bid, 3d and then 4sp showed you he had more then just a 4sp bid or else he would have just bid 4sp imidietly, bididng cue and only later 4sp showing you he is thinking of more then 4sp.
Now its your time to evaluate your hand.
No you shouldnt have bid 4c on 3d, your partner's 3d isnt showing a long spade suit, just showing strong hand for now, you should have bid 3sp since you already showed you dont have 4 card support now ur 3sp would show 3 card suit.
The bidding should continue
3D-3S
4D - 4S

4D after you have agreed on spade is now a cue bid showing a control in diamond and luck of control in club, 4sp show you dont have a control in heart, how partner lucking a control in his hand easily pass 4sp.

[jtfanclub]

Quote

Partner's 3d isnt a control showing cue bid, 3d and then 4sp showed you he had more then just a 4sp bid or else he would have just bid 4sp imidietly, bididng cue and only later 4sp showing you he is thinking of more then 4sp.

That's what makes it a courtesy slam try...in a normal slam try, partner asks you for information so he can place the contract. This time, he's going to describe his hand to you so you can place the contract.

Quote

No you shouldnt have bid 4c on 3d, your partner's 3d isnt showing a long spade suit, just showing strong hand for now, you should have bid 3sp since you already showed you dont have 4 card support now ur 3sp would show 3 card suit.

Flame's smarter than me, but I still disagree. 4 clubs says you have a club stop AND spades. By going past 3NT, you've agreed that you don't want to play in NT. Therefore you have spades. If you had club stops but two or fewer spades, 3NT would be the obvious bid.

Quote

4D after you have agreed on spade is now a cue bid showing a control in diamond and luck of control in club, 4sp show you dont have a control in heart, how partner lucking a control in his hand easily pass 4sp.

I would play a 4D after we agree on spades to show a control in diamonds, a lack of control in clubs, and a control in hearts. 4 clubs would show clubs but not hearts, 4 spades would show a lack in both clubs and hearts. The real point is, it's dangerous for your partner to assume you'll read 4 diamonds correctly.

[Flame]

jtfanclub, on Nov 5 2004, 01:56 AM, said:

Quote

Partner's 3d isnt a control showing cue bid, 3d and then 4sp showed you he had more then just a 4sp bid or else he would have just bid 4sp imidietly, bididng cue and only later 4sp showing you he is thinking of more then 4sp.

That's what makes it a courtesy slam try...in a normal slam try, partner asks you for information so he can place the contract. This time, he's going to describe his hand to you so you can place the contract.

Quote

No you shouldnt have bid 4c on 3d, your partner's 3d isnt showing a long spade suit, just showing strong hand for now, you should have bid 3sp since you already showed you dont have 4 card support now ur 3sp would show 3 card suit.

Flame's smarter than me, but I still disagree. 4 clubs says you have a club stop AND spades. By going past 3NT, you've agreed that you don't want to play in NT. Therefore you have spades. If you had club stops but two or fewer spades, 3NT would be the obvious bid.

Quote

4D after you have agreed on spade is now a cue bid showing a control in diamond and luck of control in club, 4sp show you dont have a control in heart, how partner lucking a control in his hand easily pass 4sp.

I would play a 4D after we agree on spades to show a control in diamonds, a lack of control in clubs, and a control in hearts. 4 clubs would show clubs but not hearts, 4 spades would show a lack in both clubs and hearts. The real point is, it's dangerous for your partner to assume you'll read 4 diamonds correctly.

Didnt understand your first point, partner bid 3d this is a general bid showing a good hand especially if you're playing with a pickup partner dont assume anything just bid what you have stay flexiable.
Second point, maybe im an old-fashion bridge player but for me showign stops almost always happend below 3nt, with the intention to play 3nt when we have all suits stoped and go for a suit game when we dont, i dont play 4c to show a stop when we are already above 3nt. again dont expect a pickup partner to ever think 4c is stoper showing.
Third point - i mention a normal italian cue bid style, maybe ur style is supirior but its only better when your partner know what you're doing, and again if you want partner to know what you do you better play standard systems even if you think you have better onse. I dont undersand the logic behind your system, how will you bid when you have diamonds but not clubs or heart control ?
Maybe you suggest all this because you believe partner's 3sp show lack of heart control, if this was true then 4d was showing heart +diamond but not club, but here a 3h wouldnt be a cue bid, 3sp didnt show lack of heart control, it was just a simple bridge to show 3 card support.

[jtfanclub]

Flame, on Nov 5 2004, 02:13 AM, said:

Quote

Second point, maybe im an old-fashion bridge player but for me showign stops almost always happend below 3nt, with the intention to play 3nt when we have all suits stoped and go for a suit game when we dont, i dont play 4c to show a stop when we are already above 3nt. again dont expect a pickup partner to ever think 4c is stoper showing.

Interesting. So what hand would you have to bid 4c?

Quote

Maybe you suggest all this because you believe partner's 3sp show lack of heart control, if this was true then 4d was showing heart +diamond but not club, but here a 3h wouldnt be a cue bid, 3sp didnt show lack of heart control, it was just a simple bridge to show 3 card support.

That is what I believe, you're right. More specifically, I believe that 3D asks for controls, so any bid above 3H denies a heart stopper.

[Flame]

jtfanclub, on Nov 5 2004, 02:26 AM, said:

Flame, on Nov 5 2004, 02:13 AM, said:

 

Quote

Second point, maybe im an old-fashion bridge player but for me showign stops almost always happend below 3nt, with the intention to play 3nt when we have all suits stoped and go for a suit game when we dont, i dont play 4c to show a stop when we are already above 3nt. again dont expect a pickup partner to ever think 4c is stoper showing.

Interesting. So what hand would you have to bid 4c?

Quote

Maybe you suggest all this because you believe partner's 3sp show lack of heart control, if this was true then 4d was showing heart +diamond but not club, but here a 3h wouldnt be a cue bid, 3sp didnt show lack of heart control, it was just a simple bridge to show 3 card support.

That is what I believe, you're right. More specifically, I believe that 3D asks for controls, so any bid above 3H denies a heart stopper.

Stopers and controlls arent the same, Q10x is a stoper but isnt a control, same as J10xx.
Some bids when you look for NT you bid your stopers, other bids after you have raized and you think of slam, you talk about controls.
Now after this general 3D bid you dont know if you have a fit or not, if you bid 3h i would think of it as a stoper not a control.
True this all could be played differenly but again dont assume anything when you arent with your regular pd in a sequence you have discussed before, even if you play vs someone very smart just like you, that can make the needed calculation and understand that 3h is now showing control and spade fit, even then he will not know that you also know this and assume you dont. Trust me and my many many bridge playing years, simple is not stupid, simple is gold in bridge.
About 4C, i would say no such bid.

[EricK]

Partner's 3♦ shows a big hand certainly. Whether it says much else about his hand I can't say.

I would have rebid 3♠ with your hand to let him know about the ♠ support. Then, if he were to rebid 4♦ that would be a clear-cut cue-bid. After which you can sign off in 4♠ ( not having a heart control ).

This hand is much easier if partner simply bids the obvious 2♠ on the first round. But I understand that pre-empting partner with weak jump shifts is all the range these days.

Eric

[HeartA]

Agree with Eric.

[paulg]

As we've often seen over the past two weeks, players often take different actions from the Vugraph commentators as they cannot see all four hands. I wonder whether we'd have seen different answers here if you had just posed the single hand problem?

I think this is a difficult problem for North as you are not allowed to bid both 3♠ and 3NT. Clearly partner's 3♦ shows a game forcing hand, but as you've only implied a club stop I see no reason why this shouldn't be asking for a diamond stop. How else would partner bid with ♠AKxx ♥AKx ♦xxx ♣xxx ? And he'd just love to hear 4♣ now

The problem is whether to show the stop or 3-card spade support.

I'd probably bid 3♠ but would never call 3NT wrong. The advantage of 3♠ is that partner can bid 3NT implying doubt. I wouldn't have considered 4♣ at the table but it may have some merit. All routes should lead to 4♠.

Paul

[Flame]

Yes you have a point, but first usually to show 3 card support come before showing a stop, and second the 1nt already showed (or atleast almost did) a diamond stop since the double already showed diamonds.

[jtfanclub]

cardsharp, on Nov 5 2004, 04:13 AM, said:

How else would partner bid with ♠AKxx ♥AKx ♦xxx ♣xxx ?

If he's my partner, he'd better bloody well double. If we can make 3NT, we can crunch this good. If we can't make 3NT (such as if don't have a diamond stopper), 2DX is by far the preferable contract. This is IMPs- you don't leave an opportunity like this lying around because you're afraid you might only make 500 instead of 6.

Besides, do you really want to end up at 3NT across the hand she actually had...without one of the queens? That still fits her bidding, and 2DX is still going down hard.

[paulg]

jtfanclub, on Nov 5 2004, 10:05 AM, said:

cardsharp, on Nov 5 2004, 04:13 AM, said:

How else would partner bid with ♠AKxx ♥AKx ♦xxx ♣xxx ?

If he's my partner, he'd better bloody well double. If we can make 3NT, we can crunch this good. If we can't make 3NT (such as if don't have a diamond stopper), 2DX is by far the preferable contract. ...

My expert partner would double too.

However I'm very happy to play with beginners and intermediates who do not double when its meaning is unclear to them.

p

[the hog]

This is amusing!

[luke warm]

Quote

If he's my partner, he'd better bloody well double.

i've played bridge for a very long time and i honestly can't recall even *thinking* such a thing, much less actually saying it

i suppose if one bids perfectly all the time it's ok to say what partner *bloody well* should do... however, reverse it... say you make a bidding error and partner says this to/about your bid... wouldn't it then sound a tad condescending, arrogant even?

[jtfanclub]

luke warm, on Nov 5 2004, 08:04 AM, said:

Quote

If he's my partner, he'd better bloody well double.

i've played bridge for a very long time and i honestly can't recall even *thinking* such a thing, much less actually saying it

If my partner makes a mistake, I don't have a problem with it. If he's a casual partner or or sub or whatever, that's fine. If it's a beginner, well, I'm not in the teaching business, and I'm not going to contradict whoever is teaching them.

But if a regular partner of mine insists that anything other than double is the right bid, I don't want to play with them. It's like opening 1♠ with 11-15 HCP and 5 hearts (and no spade suit). I'm not saying it's a bad system.

It's simply not a system I wish to play.

If that's arrogant, so be it.

[Flame]

OK but what if partner has more offensive hand like:
Axxx
Ax
xx
Kxxxx
Does he still double 2D ?