[Mbodell]

---

If it matters:

(IMP teams) N/S are a new partnership playing a normal 2/1 system with a 15-17 nt. Over 2♠, 2nt would have been nf inv hand with 4 spades while bids on the 3 level would be game forcing and slammish and natural (including 3♥). 4♥ is not a picture jump.

[phil_20686]

North has enough extra to bid 2c then 2s over 2H.

In this case, that would give south a chance to bid 4sf, and the auction would proabbly go

1h-1s-2c-2d-3s, and opener has shown 3514 good 14-16ish. Then south can go on.

[Phil]

These perfecto slams with an 8 card fit are very tough to bid. I don't think North is quite good enough for a 3 bid sequence but it obviously works well here.

10% to South for not bidding 3♥ and 5% to North for not bidding 2♣.

[han]

I think that north is good enough for 2C. Not saying that I would get there with that start, but it can certainly help.

[gnasher]

han, on 2012-May-01, 09:29, said:

I think that north is good enough for 2C. Not saying that I would get there with that start, but it can certainly help.

I think you should. South will bid 2♦, North will show a 3514 that's too strong for 2♠, and South will drive slam.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Here is my "lie" ( for a "resulting auction" ) -- Jac2NT with ♥A Q 10 .
The splinter reply becomes golden:

1H - 2NT!
3D! ( shortness ) - 3S ( cue ; says nothing about "seriousness" )
4C ( non-serious cue ) - 4S! ( kickback-RKC )
5D ( 2 - hQ ) - 6H

[kenrexford]

1♥ is the right start. 1♠ as a response is, IMO, the cause of all problems. With 14 HCP and a 3-ft, showing spades now works the disaster that resulted. Start with 2♣, like a sane person; you can always switch back to spades if the auction goes 1♥-2♣, 2♠-3♠.


In practice, 2♣ will work rather well if Opener hears 2♣ and jumps to 3♦ as a splinter (1♥-2♣, 3♦-3♥), as Opener has now just been able to show four good clubs (making the Queen grow up) and shortness in diamonds (making the AQxx in spades grow up and the hole in diamonds look fabulous), and the 3♥ call just set hearts as the real focus, allowing a spade cue from Opener (further solidifying the expectation that the AQxx in spades is wonderful). Responder can count 12 tricks already!

[Phil]

+1 to Ken.

[phil_20686]

kenrexford, on 2012-May-01, 10:22, said:

1♥ is the right start. 1♠ as a response is, IMO, the cause of all problems. With 14 HCP and a 3-ft, showing spades now works the disaster that resulted. Start with 2♣, like a sane person; you can always switch back to spades if the auction goes 1♥-2♣, 2♠-3♠.


In practice, 2♣ will work rather well if Opener hears 2♣ and jumps to 3♦ as a splinter (1♥-2♣, 3♦-3♥), as Opener has now just been able to show four good clubs (making the Queen grow up) and shortness in diamonds (making the AQxx in spades grow up and the hole in diamonds look fabulous), and the 3♥ call just set hearts as the real focus, allowing a spade cue from Opener (further solidifying the expectation that the AQxx in spades is wonderful). Responder can count 12 tricks already!

Obviously its fine to respond 2C, if that is your agreement. Its also fine to respond 1S, if that is your agreement. I lot of people round my way play that 2N over 2S would be a forcing inquiry. That would work perfectly fine here, north would bid 3c naturalish promising 4 clubs and only 3 spades. next hand bids 3H and you are all on your way to slam. (Obvio this is now GF as you could have 3H over 2S as NF invitational in this set up).

In so far as there is an error, it is that north undervalued his hand by bidding 2S. 2C then 3S over 4sf works great on this hand, you have shown your whole shape and your strength is limited. Admittedly you would need some artificial continuations to be sure about strain, but here that doesn't matter too much, south is only missing 14HCP is non diamond covers, so is very excited.

[kenrexford]

phil_20686, on 2012-May-01, 10:57, said:

Obviously its fine to respond 2C, if that is your agreement. Its also fine to respond 1S, if that is your agreement. I lot of people round my way play that 2N over 2S would be a forcing inquiry. That would work perfectly fine here, north would bid 3c naturalish promising 4 clubs and only 3 spades. next hand bids 3H and you are all on your way to slam. (Obvio this is now GF as you could have 3H over 2S as NF invitational in this set up).

In so far as there is an error, it is that north undervalued his hand by bidding 2S. 2C then 3S over 4sf works great on this hand, you have shown your whole shape and your strength is limited. Admittedly you would need some artificial continuations to be sure about strain, but here that doesn't matter too much, south is only missing 14HCP is non diamond covers, so is very excited.

Actually, I just discussed this type of sequence with a friend of mine, who mentioned that R-M apparently play that 2S is a GF artificial call in the sequence 1♥-1♠-2minor-2♠ (opponents passing throughout). Hence, Responder's repeat of spades is artificial and says nothing about spades -- that is the forcing call in that sequence. With long spades and a weak hand, you do something else "intelligent" here.

That said, I do not know whether R-M would bid 1♠ with a three-piece heart suit and GF values (and would be rather surprised if they do). I also stand tentatively by my statement that 1♠ caused the problem, in that although this specific auction might be unwound even with that call, I believe that approach to be problematic in many other sequences. I may well be wrong, as my concerns may well have been alleviated by those who use that method of bidding (like with the apparent R-M 2♠ rebid).

As a general note, though, it is not necessarily correct that any call in any given sequence is "fine" simply because that is the agreement. If that is in fact the agreement, then the call might be forced upon the person making that call, but the agreement might be unworkable, unsound, or otherwise not ideal. It might be workable, sound, and ideal, as well. Or, it could be workable, sound, and relatively neutral when compared to other methods.

[han]

kenrexford, on 2012-May-01, 12:18, said:

With long spades and a weak hand, you do something else "intelligent" here.

Meckwell plays that 1H - 2S is weak.

[kenrexford]

han, on 2012-May-01, 12:21, said:

Meckwell plays that 1H - 2S is weak.

That makes sense. I thought they were playing 1♥-P-2♠ as invitational, but clearly that must be incorrect or old information. That treatment, then, makes a lot of sense, except that it does force a troubling bid with six spades and invitational, but that might not be a problem. Do you know how they handle something like ♠KQJxxx ♥x ♦Axx ♣xxx after a 1♥ opening?

[han]

As far as I know they bid 1S and then 3S with invitational hands.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

@ KenRex...

I believe Meckwell only uses 2S = artificial GF only after a natural 2D rebid :

1H - 1S
2D - 2S!

...because if the rebid is 2C, you have an easy 4th Suit GF of 2D!:
1H - 1S
2C - 2D!

[kenrexford]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-01, 17:34, said:

@ KenRex...

I believe Meckwell only uses 2S = artificial GF only after a natural 2D rebid :

1H - 1S
2D - 2S!

...because if the rebid is 2C, you have an easy 4th Suit GF of 2D!:
1H - 1S
2C - 2D!

You are correct. I forgot that.

[Fluffy]

even with relays starting on 1NT GF response I can only find partner is 14-15 with 3514, don't have the space to find all keycards in time, a dreadful slam could be bid if north had a stiff diamond honnor.

[Zelandakh]

Maybe it depends on your relay structure. Mine finds Opener with ~14-17, 3514 and 5 controls at 4♣. We are only committed to the 5 level if partner has the ♥K. I did not find the ♠J - the slam looks to be over 50% even without knowing about it.

1♥ = 10-17, 5+ hearts, unbal
... - 1♠ = INV+ relay
2♦ = max, 4+ clubs, GF
... - 2♥ = relay
2NT = 4 clubs
... - 3♣ = relay
4♣ = 3514, 5 controls
... - 4♦ = relay
5♣ = controls in hearts, clubs and spades, no ♦A
... - 6♥

In the original auction I am interested what the OP plays 3NT and 4♣ over a Responder's rebid of 3♥. If, for example, 3NT started a cue auction then 4♣ could be used as a natural patterning out bid showing the diamond shortage. This could be an alternative way of reaching the slam in a system that encourages an immediate raise with this kind of hand.

[mfa1010]

Fluffy, on 2012-May-02, 04:37, said:

even with relays starting on 1NT GF response I can only find partner is 14-15 with 3514, don't have the space to find all keycards in time, a dreadful slam could be bid if north had a stiff diamond honnor.

We play relays from 1NT and we have the option of inviting slam after partner has shown his shape:
1♥-1NT (game force relay)
2♣-2♦ ((13)14-15 almost any hand; relay)
3♣-3♦ (exactly 5♥+4♣; relay)
3NT-4♦ (3514; slam try in hearts).

Opener should cooperate after 4♦ even though his trumps are bad which is a big evaluation factor as we play. The rest of his hand is very good with so many controls and no waste.

[han]

Now that we are talking relays, for us the auction would be

1H - 2C (GF relay)
2D (4 clubs) - 2H (relay)
2S (5-4) - 2NT (relay)
3D (3-5-1-4) - 3H (asks strength)
3NT (medium)

Medium shows approximately 14-16, but we wouldn't bid it with 14 and a stiff queen. I think that responder is good enough to ask for keycards.

.. - 4H (RKC for hearts)
5C (2 no queen) - 5D (scan)
5NT (club king, spade king, no club queen) - 6H

We are a little lucky with the relays, 3-5-1-4 happens to be a cheap distribution for us.

[dake50]

"Cover your eyes little tweety bird.
You shouldn't outta see this."
***
I'd try 4D splinter with North's hand.
Heavens! With 3-support?!?
That here solves North's problem after
South next supports hearts.