[diana_eva]

Hi,

We're having a bit of a disagreement about how to bid this hand:

IMPs, none vul, South deals. Playing 2/1 nothing fancy.

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1) Is this an opening hand?

I thought it was close but not quite good enough to open, so I passed. Then the bidding came back to me with:

---

2) Is it a good idea to T/O X now? Or if the hand wasn't good enough to open it's not good enough to bid here either?

Thanks for answering.

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2012-April-26, 01:08

[Phil]

I'd open. Had I passed I'd x 3♦.

[jillybean]

Ditto, I like the 4414 shape.

We assume 'inverted' is actually a preemptive raise do we?

[32519]

The hand contains 3 "Quick Tricks," two of which are in the boss suit. The hand should be opened.

Have a look what this guy said about Quick Tricks (page 1).

[Cthulhu D]

I think it's impossible to discuss whether hands like this are an 'opener' or not - this is obviously close to the border, so it's partnership discussion. With most partners I'd open, playing a sounder opening style I would not, and in that case coming back in with double is a fairly descriptive bid on the hand, but that depends on your overcalling style there too - if partner makes 4 card overcalls at the one level freely, double is not going to be good. I'm not defending the merits of playing overalls that aggressive, but it is fun!

NAE: Anyway, imho it's an opener if you sat down and said '2/1 GF' and pulled the cards out of the board, and I'd double if it wasn't an opener by partnership agreement.

[diana_eva]

jillybean, on 2012-April-26, 01:52, said:

Ditto, I like the 4414 shape.

We assume 'inverted' is actually a preemptive raise do we?

Yes, preemptive raise, weak hand long diamonds.

[Zelandakh]

This is 100% an opener for me, either 1NT (weak) or 1♣ depending on system. The truth is that even in the 1940s this would be a normal opening; with modern requirements for opening being generally so much lower it is surely wrong to pass this. If I took this hand over from the wine waiter then I would double 3♦ - if you do not double with this hand then with what? Partner could even still be sitting there with a balanced 14 count and 4 spades (Qxxx/AK/xxx/KQxx).

[gwnn]

100% opening, but 110% double. A lot of good things can happen if you x.

[the_clown]

I would certainly double, and would open unless we have agreed to open very sound

[billw55]

I was taught that any hand with an AK and A is an automatic opener. Ergo I cannot ever have this hand for the second question, so abstain.

[gwnn]

billw55, on 2012-April-26, 06:19, said:

I was taught that any hand with an AK and A is an automatic opener. Ergo I cannot ever have this hand for the second question, so abstain.

there's no immediate need to abstain, e.g. I think AQxx xxxx x Axxx is also a clear double. Partner will know our hand quite well.

[daveharty]

I actually think that opening minimum strength 4441 hands often works out badly; it seems like you often don't get the corresponding increase in playing strength that usually accompanies shortness, as there is no long suit. That being said, AK A is such a nice holding that I would definitely open this one; aces are undervalued anyway, and a connected king (in spades yet!) is really nice. If I had passed originally, I would double now.

[ArtK78]

Even playing Goren in the 1950s this would have been an opening bid. 11 HCP and 2 for distribution is 13 points, a full opening bid. The fact that the 11 HCP are an A and an AK makes it even better.

In short, this is a no doubt about it full opening bid.

If someone put a gun to my head and told me that I can't open the bidding on this hand, I would certainly double over P - (1♦) - P - (3♦), assuming that 3♦ was a weak bid. If 3♦ was a limit raise, there is an argument for passing now, but I suspect that I might double even then.

[y66]

I think it is clear to open with 4-4 in the majors, nice shape, AKxx in one suit and Axxx in another. If South keeled over after passing and I were subbing, I would double 3D.

[lalldonn]

I could imagine a style where you pass this hand even though I would hate it and never use that style myself. I can not imagine a style where, having passed, you could reasonably fail to double though. You might even double without the king.

[dwar0123]

As the confused individual who is clearly wrong, I am still confused and if you could clarify a few things for me I would appreciate it.

My understanding of takeout doubles is that you should have 16 points to make one at the 3rd level. Obviously you can't have 16 points as a passed hand and thus the definition of this bid in this situation is open to a different interpretation, but I felt the reasons that you should have 16 points would still apply. Ie, you are forcing your partner to bid at least at the 3 level and should have enough strength to minimize the chances of being doubled and set a large number. At the 3rd level, I thought this number was 16.

West in this situation is still unlimited(to 20) and could easily be 4-4 in the majors, in which case you are going for a very large number. There is this risk in all bids but it still seems to me to be unusually substantial in this situation.

This lesson was pounded into me one day when(with a slightly weaker but same distributional hand) I went for 1100 after this auction.
P(me)-1♦-p-1nt
X-XX-p-p
2♥-x-passout
Granted 1nt is 6-9 rather then 0-6, but I was only forcing the 2 level. The good player opposite me left in disgust commenting that my bid was insane and upon reflection I felt he was right. I am not yet seeing much difference between the two situations.

[Cthulhu D]

dwar0123, on 2012-April-26, 13:35, said:

As the confused individual who is clearly wrong, I am still confused and if you could clarify a few things for me I would appreciate it.

My understanding of takeout doubles is that you should have 16 points to make one at the 3rd level. Obviously you can't have 16 points as a passed hand and thus the definition of this bid in this situation is open to a different interpretation, but I felt the reasons that you should have 16 points would still apply. Ie, you are forcing your partner to bid at least at the 3 level and should have enough strength to minimize the chances of being doubled and set a large number. At the 3rd level, I thought this number was 16.

West in this situation is still unlimited(to 20) and could easily be 4-4 in the majors, in which case you are going for a very large number. There is this risk in all bids but it still seems to me to be unusually substantial in this situation.

This lesson was pounded into me one day when(with a slightly weaker but same distributional hand) I went for 1100 after this auction.
P(me)-1♦-p-1nt
X-XX-p-p
2♥-x-passout
Granted 1nt is 6-9 rather then 0-6, but I was only forcing the 2 level. The good player opposite me left in disgust commenting that my bid was insane and upon reflection I felt he was right. I am not yet seeing much difference between the two situations.

The difference is the fit. The opposition here rate to have atleast 9 diamonds, so you have good chances to catch partner with a 4 card major, limiting to the damage, but I think this illustrates why it's becoming an increasingly popular style to open light distributional hands.

Yes LHO could be 4=4=3=2 but that is a very small chance.

[CSGibson]

I would open without a 2nd thought. AK A is 3 quick tricks, might not work out but getting the first shot in is often productive.

Doubling is dangerous here, but passing is even more so; I would X. I would rather have opened right away so that I didn't have to stretch to show values now at a more dangerous point in the auction

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 Pass, it is certainly the best 4441 shape, and you have 3 quick tricks,
so opening is ok, but as stated, each partnership needs to draw their line
in the sand, and this one is kept out, hence pass.

#2 X

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikl_plkcc]

By using rule of 20, a 11 HCP hand with 4-4-4-1 shape only counts 19, so normally I won't open this kind of hands. At the 3rd or 4th seat, though, I may relax the rule a bit.

But as this 11 HCPs are composed of all As and Ks, so I automatically upgrade it slightly and I also upgrade it due to its 4-4-4-1 shape (rather than 4-4-3-2) so I will open it even at the 1st or 2nd seat, by treating it as a 12 HCPs hand.

However, I normally play all Xes above 3-level as penalty, so I won't double it.