[y66]

It's easy to find stories about public WiFi experiments, like this one by C.F. at the Economist.

But I have not seen any stories that make a decent case for local governments to invest in public WiFi.

Have you?

[mike777]

most local govts dont have the money to pay for basic services much less public wifi.

who the heck has that kind of money?

[hrothgar]

At a high level, arguments in favor of government interference in the economy typically assume some kind of market imperfection.

In the case of public provisioning of wi-fi, most arguments focus on so-called "natural monopolies".
Its important to note that the monopoly is NOT with the last mile provisioning
(Its pretty easy to set up local wi-fi hot-spots)

Rather, local carriers typically have a monopoly at the municipal level.

Chart's like the following are typically used to discuss the inefficiencies caused by monopolies

[blackshoe]

Perhaps if local carrier monopolies are a bad thing the solution is to eliminate the monopoly rather than have local governments set themselves up as a new monopoly just for wi-fi.

Then of course there's the question whether broadcasting wi-fi signals all over town has any adverse health impact. As far as I know, the jury's still out on that.

[hrothgar]

blackshoe, on 2012-April-22, 13:17, said:

Perhaps if local carrier monopolies are a bad thing the solution is to eliminate the monopoly rather than have local governments set themselves up as a new monopoly just for wi-fi.

Please note the use of the expression "natural monopoly"

This has a specific meaning. It refers to a condition in which the cost structure of an industry is dominated by economies of scale and favor a single provide.
Transmission networks are often cited as a prototypical example of natural monopolies.

[barmar]

I suspect one of the reasons for municipal WiFi is that commercial providers find it hard to monetize it. Most of the free WiFi you find in the US is at places like Starbucks -- they use it as a loss leader to get patrons to spend more time in the store, during which they'll buy the regular products. And even at places that don't generally have "lingerers", it's become a competitive necessity -- some of their competitors started offering it, and they have to keep up with the trend or lose customers to them.

But why would an ordinary broadband provider make free WiFi available throughout a town? What do they get from it, except perhaps good PR?

There's a widespread feeling that the "information superhighway" is just as important as real roads and highways (these are truly natural monopolies), so if it makes sense for the government to provide roads for free (mostly -- except for occasional toll highways), it also makes sense for them to provide WiFi.

[mike777]

btw the govt does not provide free roads...they are paid for with gas taxes and property taxes....lets keep that in mind.

Now if you want to raise property taxes to build local wifi?

[hrothgar]

mike777, on 2012-April-22, 15:17, said:

btw the govt does not provide free roads...they are paid for with gas taxes and property taxes....lets keep that in mind.

Now if you want to raise property taxes to build local wifi?

Please consult the previous diagram (especially the section labelled dead weight loss)

There are lots of inefficiencies in the existing system.
Correcting them creates consumer surplus which, in turn, can be used to fund a Wi-Fi system.

Please note: historically, it was very common for municipalities to run the electric company, the water works, and the like...

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2012-April-22, 14:44, said:

I suspect one of the reasons for municipal WiFi is that commercial providers find it hard to monetize it.

Has "make money from" become an acceptable definition of "monetize" in the United States?

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2012-April-22, 16:27, said:

Has "make money from" become an acceptable definition of "monetize" in the United States?

It seems to have become popular in the Internet industry to refer to making money from web sites (e.g. "how can YouTube monetize their content?"). But it doesn't seem to have made it into any dictionaries yet. But since I'd never even encountered the word before this context, I had no idea it was a new usage.

[Gerben42]

Around here, people are very reluctant to have open WiFi as you can be made responsible for illegal actions taken by the users.

I think that is a terrible law, but cannot change much about it.

[Fluffy]

In Spain there was a little town who made public wifi long ago, as far as I know it was a good success and everyone was happy with it.

Having connection with your laptop (and now phones) anywhere seems like an improvement over having to find a connection when you are out of home/work. But it doesn't collect taxes nnor make profits for the big companies so goverments won't like it in big cities.

[mike777]

Fluffy, on 2012-April-23, 17:03, said:

In Spain there was a little town who made public wifi long ago, as far as I know it was a good success and everyone was happy with it.

Having connection with your laptop (and now phones) anywhere seems like an improvement over having to find a connection when you are out of home/work. But it doesn't collect taxes nnor make profits for the big companies so goverments won't like it in big cities.

where did the money come from to build and maintain it?

btw People love free stuff...so if free I understand why everyone....I mean everyone is happy..... ok......

[Hanoi5]

Which little town Gonzalo?

In Venezuela few places have free wifi, one of them is a park in Caracas, called Miranda.

The government pays for most of the free or cheap things Venezuelans get. Our budget is based on the assumption that the oil barrel costs $50. So the other 50 can be used for this kind of things, and for keeping our gas at merely some cents. And for the pockets of politicians, of course.

That's XXI Century Socialism, our government absorbs EVERYTHING and then tries to manage it.

I think it's creating a monopoly.

Let's see how long it lasts.

[mike777]

Hanoi5, on 2012-April-23, 22:02, said:

Which little town Gonzalo?

In Venezuela few places have free wifi, one of them is a park in Caracas, called Miranda.

The government pays for most of the free or cheap things Venezuelans get. Our budget is based on the assumption that the oil barrel costs $50. So the other 50 can be used for this kind of things, and for keeping our gas at merely some cents. And for the pockets of politicians, of course.

That's XXI Century Socialism, our government absorbs EVERYTHING and then tries to manage it.

I think it's creating a monopoly.

Let's see how long it lasts.

I think that is any century socialism........

[cherdano]

hrothgar, on 2012-April-22, 13:10, said:

At a high level, arguments in favor of government interference in the economy typically assume some kind of market imperfection.

At a low level, a very strong argument for public Wifi is made by Charter's/Comcast's/DirectTV's customer service day in and out.

[kenberg]

cherdano, on 2012-April-24, 06:23, said:

At a low level, a very strong argument for public Wifi is made by Charter's/Comcast's/DirectTV's customer service day in and out.

This strikes home. We wire up through Comcast. Frustrating. Very. On the other hand, if the county that I live in provided free WiFi they would probably block access to sites that discussed evolution. Unless it was a rant against it. OK, I exaggerate. I think.


All in all I think I will take a pass on large scale public WiFi. Our local Y provides not only WiFi but also computers. So does the library. This is probably the right thing for people who can afford neither WiFi nor computers. The coffee shops provide WiFi but of course, afaik, no computers. Maybe I can't do it in the road, but when I am on the road I can definitely find a place to do it. Oddly, the cheap hotels seem better at this than the expensive ones, and the airports are often hopeless.

[Fluffy]

was a little town on the south, doubt it had more than a thousand people, not close to any city, I don't remember its name, the money all came from the city council I think. I will ask a friend to see if he remembers more.

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2012-April-24, 07:57, said:

Oddly, the cheap hotels seem better at this than the expensive ones, and the airports are often hopeless.

The explanation for this is simple: most of the customers of expensive hotels are people on business trips, who are on expense accounts, so the cost of the Internet connection doesn't come out of their pocket. But cheap hotels are frequented by people on a budget, and they're not likely to pay for expensive WiFi.

Airports seem to be split -- some have free WiFi, others charge for it, I'm not sure what distinguishes them (maybe it's hubs versus non-hubs). I also was in one that had the option of free WiFi after you watched some ads.

[mgoetze]

Gerben42, on 2012-April-23, 10:14, said:

Around here, people are very reluctant to have open WiFi as you can be made responsible for illegal actions taken by the users.

I think that is a terrible law, but cannot change much about it.

I think this is a terrible oversimplification of the situation.

(Some reading material in German: http://www.lawblog.d...e-gehen-weiter/ and http://www.lawblog.d...bleibt-riskant/ )