[thebiker]

I play weak NT (12-14) and have recently been impressed (by other BBO forum members) that playing takeout doubles over natural minor suit overcalls is a better way of introducing Stayman sequences compared to Lebebsohl / Rubensohl counter measures

I still have a few points to sort out

1NT (2C) X Takeout, with (a) Competitive values or (b) Staymanic Takeout with game values, similarly 1NT (2D) X

My problem is how does one differentiate between type(a)and type (b)bids

1NT (2D) x
2H 4H - must show game values therefore NP

but what about
1NT (2D) X
2H 2S? Does this show competitive values only with 4 spades and perhaps 4 clubs, or do people use it to show game values with 4 spades
My guess is that for most players the sequence shows 4 spades and competitive values only, so how do people show a game forcing hand with 4 spades, and still manage to stay at a sensible level when there may be no decent 4-4 fit?? and where there may also be an absence of club stoppers between the two hands so that NT is not viable

Thank you in advance for your input and suggestions

Brian Keable

alias "thebiker"

[mgoetze]

Well if you have game values you bid game and if you don't you don't.

Edit: only about half the OP existed when I wrote this.

[thebiker]

I guess you mean

1NT (2D) X
2H 3NT - Values for game with 4 spades ??

Isnt that a bit WW1 ?
Couldnt we have a sequence that tries to find a spade fit, and is aware that there might be a probably with diamonds?

regards

Brian Keable
alias "the biker"

[steve2005]

1N-(2♦)-X-(pass)-2♥-(pass)-3♦ forcing probably with 4 spades or a mega hand

[Stephen Tu]

You double mostly with competitive values, partner is allowed to pass the double with 4+ good trumps after all. I think the main recommendation about neg doubles is that they are way more useful than something silly like "stolen bid doubles"; it's more frequently important to be compete in either major over 2d, than to make 1nt opener declarer in a major partial.

You also have the option of just cue-bidding as stayman with a GF hand that just wants to find out about 4-4 major fit and play 3nt otherwise assuming stopper is held. Sometimes you are vul, they are not, or you have stiff or void diamond, you don't really want to risk partner passing when game should be high percentage and higher scoring.

If play Lebensohl, opp overcall 2d, 3d = stayman without stop, 2nt follow by 3d = stayman with stop, usually.
Rubensohl, you can use 3c (xfer into opp suit = stayman), opener can bid 3M with stop + suit, bid 3d without stop and responder continue up the line.

So use neg double as a competitive tool, but if you want to use stayman, use stayman. You can have both!

[fromageGB]

I am not at all convinced by the takeout double brigade, but it seems to be that double DENIES a game hand. With a game hand then use the Lebensohl or transfer cue bid.

However, when an opponent has a longish suit, then often so too does responder. And this is likely to be a major. Of course it is better to transfer and have it played by opener. But you can't do this if double is takeout. So weigh up the odds of having a 4414 or similar shape, and compare them with the odds of a 5 card major. No simulations, but I can guess the major wins.

The other point is that you have no room to manoeuvre and will commonly be playing in a 4-3 fit. Fancy playing a 4-3 fit at the 2 or 3 level with a combined 22/23 count? I don't. I'd rather defend. So if you play takeout double then maybe the double is supposed to be passed by opener if he has 4 diamonds, I don't know. If he bids on with 3 diamonds you are likely to be going off as a sacrifice, so maybe takeout doublers don't do it vulnerable, unless a pure 4414.

Put me down as significantly not convinced. The major transfer is worth a trick compared with not transferring, and more likely.

[Stephen Tu]

fromageGB, on 2012-April-21, 14:48, said:

Put me down as significantly not convinced. The major transfer is worth a trick compared with not transferring, and more likely.

There's no way transferring is worth a full trick. Some 95% of the time double-dummy you are supposed to take the same # of tricks no matter who declares. This is giving responder a 5 cd + major, less than 9 hcp, in partial range.

Plus there are hands where it's actually better for responder to declare. My computer sim actually thinks this is more frequent, haven't looked closely at exactly why yet.

[edit: above was for a strong NT. weak NT figures later]

Tried it again with weak NT, it was about the same, vast majority of time didn't matter, more of a tossup which side is better on the ones where it actually matters.

[fromageGB]

Thanks for the figures. I can't help thinking, though, that double dummy does not apply. When responder plays 2♥ it is inevitable that 4th seat leads a diamond through the NT holder's opening hand into the diamond bidder. Played by opener after a transfer, unless the diamond suit is solid, overcaller has to lead away from his holding into opener's possible tenace. If he instead leads another suit hoping to get an entry opposite, he has no knowledge of what suit to lead and can easily choose the wrong one, which enables dummy to discard a diamond on something in declarer's hand, or be otherwise to declarer's advantage.

Double dummy it is easy - the overcaller leads an unsupported king and continues to partner's ace, or QJ, or QT over dummy's J. Life is not like that.