[hrothgar]

Zelandakh, on 2016-September-28, 04:51, said:

There are basically 4 main approaches - asking bids, 4-suit RKCB, denial cue bids and parity cue bids. What you have written so far sounds like one of the last two and since DCBs are the simpler option it is logical to expect that to be what you are using. Of course you can get by without pinpointing honours at all, such as with most versions of the Roman strong 3-suited opening that use QPs, but that would not be particularly clever over a strong club given all of the space available.

FWIW, MOSCITO uses a combination

The relay captain has the option to use either a Q point ask followed by denial cube bidding OR a KRBC ask followed by asking bids...

[Zelandakh]

hrothgar, on 2016-September-28, 06:58, said:

FWIW, MOSCITO uses a combination

The relay captain has the option to use either a Q point ask followed by denial cube bidding OR a KRBC ask followed by asking bids...

Yes, exactly. Many systems have 2 or more alternatives to choose from and several can also choose to switch to controls instead of QPs where that seems more advantageous. The OP seems to think they have something new and original though, which could possibly be true but it seems more likely on balance that it merely reflects a lack of knowledge about what has already been developed.

[Amonias]

nullve, on 2016-September-17, 09:12, said:

I'm trying to figure out what SCOR-SCOR might look like over

1♠-2♣(GF relay).

Maybe

2♦ = 5S4+D
2♥ = 5S4+H
2♠ = 6 or 8 S, denies 4+ H (H is same rank as S)
...2N = relay
......2nd part of SCOR-SCOR:
......3♣ = 4+ C
......3♦ = 4+ D
......3N = 8 S, 1-suited
......other = 6 S, 1-suited?
2N = 7 S
...3♣ = relay
......3♦ = 4+ D
......3♥ = 4+ H
......4♣ = 4+ C
......other = 1-suited?
3♣ = 5S4+C
3♦ = ?
3♥ = 6S4+H or 8S4+H¹

+ lots of relays?

¹ "With 6 card suit you show your 5+ card Basic suit, then you show your side suits by 2nd part of scor-SCOR, thus informing your partner that you have 6 or 8 card suit, then you will show your 2nd longest suit naturally, revealing your exact shape, BUT if your side suits are RANK, you must immediately bid your 2nd longest suit by jump, despite that you will bid over the 6th step of SCOR-SCOR Convention! In this case, from 6th step and up, you will enter the Extended SCOR."

As I understand from what what I read
Opening 1S 5+ spades. Not5-5+

After 1sp-1NT Relay Scor-scor
2c shape h-c same or nearly the same length
2d colour h-d
2h rank d-c
2s 6sp shape h-c same or nearly the same length
2NT 6sp colour
3c 6sp rank

After 1sp-1NT-2cl-2di relay
2h 5413
2s 5323
2NT 7sp
3c 5314
3d 5224

After 1sp-1NT-2sp-2NT
3c 6304
3d 6142 or 6241
3h 6403
3s 6232

The above is how I interpret the scor-scor.

As I understand it the Force Point system sacrifies all preemptive opening bids (to 5-5 6-5 and 3-suited) .
Also no balanced light 1 openings in 1-2 seat.
What the system sacrifice in agressiveness it get back in precision on some hands.
To compensate for this 1 club opening in 3-4 seat is only 8+hcp.

A good hand evaluation system for unbalanced hands.

[Zelandakh]

Amonias, on 2016-September-30, 04:18, said:

As I understand from what what I read

The problem with using 1NT as a GF relay does not come on those hands but rather than invitational and weak ones. There are methods around to deal with this but none are fully satisfactory. The most interesting part of this system is probably here if there is actually something new at all. To avoid this I actually use 1NT as an invitational or better relay in my system, giving less space on GF hands but more for the weak ones since these are the hands that cannot afford to get too high.

The relay structure you provide is of course horribly inefficient, so I hope there is some mistake there. Assigning a single shape to 2♥ is just not going to work. It is essentially this inefficiency that forces the loss of the preemptive openings. Use a better relay structure and there is plenty of space over 1NT for everything. That you are basically gaining nothing on the GF hands versus other relay structures but losing out heavily on weaker hands should tell you immediately that this is likely to be a poor system design. I will leave that fo you to discover in time though; I am sure it is perfectly playable in the meantime and it will not hurt to have played around with it.

[Fluffy]

QPs?, I though they were called slam points. But a couple of pairs in WBGs used them after strong club opening, they called them "zz"

[Amonias]

Zelandakh, on 2016-September-30, 06:09, said:

The problem with using 1NT as a GF relay does not come on those hands but rather than invitational and weak ones. There are methods around to deal with this but none are fully satisfactory. The most interesting part of this system is probably here if there is actually something new at all. To avoid this I actually use 1NT as an invitational or better relay in my system, giving less space on GF hands but more for the weak ones since these are the hands that cannot afford to get too high.

The relay structure you provide is of course horribly inefficient, so I hope there is some mistake there. Assigning a single shape to 2♥ is just not going to work. It is essentially this inefficiency that forces the loss of the preemptive openings. Use a better relay structure and there is plenty of space over 1NT for everything. That you are basically gaining nothing on the GF hands versus other relay structures but losing out heavily on weaker hands should tell you immediately that this is likely to be a poor system design. I will leave that fo you to discover in time though; I am sure it is perfectly playable in the meantime and it will not hurt to have played around with it.

Sorry for not being clear in my earlier posting.

My earlier unclear posting should have been
After 1sp-1NT Relay Scor-scor
2c shape h-c same or nearly the same length
2d colour h-d same or nearly the same length
2h rank d-c same or nearly the same length
2s 6sp shape h-c same or nearly the same length
2NT 6sp colour h-d same or nearly the same length
3c 6sp rank d-c same or nearly the same length

2h not only 1 shape (Can be seen from Pavels post earlier in this thread )
1s-1NT-2h (rank d-c same or nearly the same length) - 2sp relay
2NT 7spades
3c 5134
3d 5143
3h 5422
3s 5233

My earlier post was a try to answer nullve trying to figure out SCOR-SCOR.

I do not play this system and the info I have about this system is from this thread and what i have found on internet.

[nullve]

Thanks, Amonias. It looks like I misread

Pavell, on 2016-May-28, 17:20, said:

In general, when you have odd number card suit (5, 7) you show your 5+ card Basic suit, then you show your side suits by 1st part of SCOR - SCOR, then if you have 5 card suit you will show directly your 2nd longest suit naturally, revealing your exact shape, BUT if you have a 7 card suit, you will bid NT to show that you have the next odd number of cards in your suit, thus postponing the answer for the 2nd longest suit, and on the next Relay you will show your 2nd longest suit naturally.

as

Quote

In general, when you have odd number card suit (5, 7) you show your 5+ card Basic suit, then if you have 5 card suit you will show directly your 2nd longest suit naturally, revealing your exact shape, BUT if you have a 7 card suit, you will bid NT to show that you have the next odd number of cards in your suit, thus postponing the answer for the 2nd longest suit, and on the next Relay you will show your 2nd longest suit naturally.

,
i.e. with the red part omitted.

[Zelandakh]

Amonias, on 2016-September-30, 07:50, said:

2h not only 1 shape (Can be seen from Pavels post earlier in this thread )

Perhaps you missed the part to which I was referring:

Amonias, on 2016-September-30, 04:18, said:

After 1sp-1NT-2cl-2di relay
2h 5413

That is very efficient if you happen to hold a 5413 hand opposite a game force but not so good for the other parts of the system.

[Amonias]

Zelandakh, on 2016-September-30, 10:16, said:

Perhaps you missed the part to which I was referring:


That is very efficient if you happen to hold a 5413 hand opposite a game force but not so good for the other parts of the system.

Thank you for specify what you mean.
I agree with you , if 1NT was a GF and ask about openers exact distribution is it not optimal to have early responsen mean only 1 exact pattern.
It is more optimal to let the first respons-steps have multiple meanings to get more information out of the relays . You can balance it out with the fibonachi-series.

As I understand the system the 1NT relay is not GF (maybe after the second relay it is GF).
And to a non GF-relay you can not have to many different pattern. I am not sure how easy it is to do intelligent relay break after first scor-scor relay.

[Zelandakh]

Amonias, on 2016-September-30, 14:28, said:

As I understand the system the 1NT relay is not GF (maybe after the second relay it is GF).
And to a non GF-relay you can not have to many different pattern. I am not sure how easy it is to do intelligent relay break after first scor-scor relay.

If 1NT is not GF then it starts to look a little like my system. I use 1NT as INV+ and use the relay breaks to handle the invitational hands:-

1♠ - 1NT
==
2♣ = min with 0-3 hearts
... - 2♦ = GF relay (response structure identical to 2♥+ directly over 1NT)
... - 2M, 2NT, 3m = nat, INV
2♦ = 4+ hearts
... - 2♥ = GF relay
... - 2♠, 2NT, 3m, 3♥ = nat, INV
2♥ = extras, 4+ clubs, GF
2♠ = extras, 6+ spades, GF
2NT = extras, 5 spades, 4 diamonds, GF
3♣ = extras, 6043/6142, GF
3♦ = extras, 6241, GF
3♥ = extras, 6340, GF
3♠+ = extras, 7+ spades, 4 diamonds, GF
--

The later relay breaks I use primarily for stopper asks as this is otherwise awkward to handle in relay methods. Other common alternatives there are shortage-showing or for various slam purposes. Relay breaks for whichever 4-level bids that are available after sign-offs should be slam-oriented, whether that be RKCB, asking bids or giving alternatives between QPs and CPs. You can look through some threads discussing my system or, probably better for your purposes, Adam's IMPrecision for more ideas in this area. The Non-Natural Systems forum is for the most part the best place for such threads or for any questions that come up.

[Fluffy]

Invitational+ undescriptive relay looks highly vulnerable to overcalls, have you tested it against real opponents yet Zel?

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on 2016-October-11, 08:07, said:

Invitational+ undescriptive relay looks highly vulnerable to overcalls, have you tested it against real opponents yet Zel?

Yes, but generally not high level ones so it is perhaps not a fair comparison. The system was worth close to half an IMP per board over Acol with the same partner and the same standard of opponents despite my partner still being in the learning phase. I have not had the opportunity to test it further since we stopped playing together though. Most of all it was fun. So much so that my partner actually went and learned Polish Club (and the Polish language) afterwards as that was the most similar mainstream method available. Maybe one day I will tidy up my system file and start playing it again, perhaps even against some better opponents. Not for a while though as I am just too busy for the time being to devote so much time and effort to it.

[Pavell]

Vampyr, on 2016-May-30, 23:20, said:

$44 is a lot of money for a bridge book.

- The black & white book on Amazon, Barnes & Noble & bookstores cost $20, the black & white book .epub version on XLibris.com (the Publisher) & Google (for tablets, telephones) cost 10, the color eBook on http://bull-bridge.com cost $13.5 (tax included) and goes with free .epub version.
- The bundle of the color e-Book & the Sysnotes computer program for playing Fp on Internet cost $44, and it can be found on Shopify store on Facebook even for 20% OFF through January 8, 2018 (you can find any of them by looking for "Slam after Slam with Force Point")
- By the way, the system is a combination of natural & relay bids and is not banned (and can not be banned) on any Tournament. For most of the Opponents it may be difficult for understanding, just because it is a new system, but they always can ask & ans will receive complete explanations.

[Pavell]

veistikke, on 2012-April-19, 08:10, said:

I was kibbing some bridge yeasterday, and I came over this force point system? (SCOR-SCOR Convention, FP counting) Have u bbo players heard about it befor?

If anyone have, can you please explane some of it? Maybe tell me if it is a nice system?

2023 Fp Bridge System is free for all bridge players who do not intent to use it on international Tournament. Other way go to: bull-bridge.com to buy a pair license for $13.05

Last Updated: November 23, 2023


Force Point (Fp) Counting


Your Base Number (B#) is the strength of your hand in contract tricks (the tricks above the first 6 tricks which are not counted in the game of bridge)
B# = all tricks minus 2
NOTE: learn to count visually: Find A+Q or 2 K and do not count them (so, you will not need to subtract 2 on the end). Count only the rest.
.
The game's Play Level (PL) is the sum of both partners Base Numbers (B#)
The Control Points (CP) are the values of Controls you have. The values of the real Controls are: K = 4 CP, Ace = 6 CP. The values the pseudo Controls are: Singleton = 4 CP, Void = 6 CP (10 CP when you do not have any TOP Honor opposite in the same suit)

Equivalent Queens (EQ) are all values that counts for 0.5
.
If you are the Opener check how many Equivalent Queens (EQ) you have. If you have 4 or more EQ do NOT count 1 of them !
Do that even when you have 4 real Queens in one hand.
If you forget to do that your eventual answer for Controls (CP) later will be wrong and almost for sure you eventual SLAM contract will go 1 down !!
.
Singleton Ace = 2 contract tricks (1.5 for the Ace + 0.5 for the Singleton)
.
Ace = 1.5
.
King = 1.0
.
Singleton King = 0.5 !!
.
NOTE: If you discover an Ace or a Queen opposite the Singleton
King, raise its value to 1.0)
.
Queen = 0.5
.
Void = 0.5 !!
.
Any Singleton = 0.5 (except Singleton Ace). Do not duplicate the count of the Singleton Queen !!
.
NOTE: Fp do NOT scan a Singleton Queen at all !!
.
Ax + Ax = 0.5 (in one or both hands, count the Aces separately)
.
xx + xx = 0.5 (any 2 doubletons without TOP Honors in them, in one or both hands)
.
2 + 5 or more cards with the 2 Controls = 0.5
.
For KQJx+ in а side suit (not in the Trump) add 0.5
.
For 7222 add 0.5 for the 3 double-tons in addition to 0.5 for the 7 card suit
.
For 7 card mono suit (with at least one Honor) add 0.5, for 8 card suit add 1.0 and so on … The Formula is: 0.5*(x - 6), where x is the sum the cards in the long suit
.
For 6/5 bi-color add 0.5, for 6/6 bi-color add 1.0 and so on
… The Formula is: 0.5*(x - 10), where x is the sum of the cards in both long suits
NOTE: Pay attention when you have a bi-color with 7+ card suit to add separate by 0.5 for each card over the 6th one !!


Adjustments

Do not make any Positive Adjustment for 8+ by 1 Trump !


The Positive Adjustments

Add 0.5 for any 9 card Super FIT if you do NOT have all 3 TOP Honors in that Super FIT (in one or in both hands, in any suit)
.
Add 1.0 for any 10 card Super FIT if you do NOT have all 3 TOP Honors in that Super FIT. If you DO have all 3 TOP Honors in that Super FIT, add only 0.5 (in one or in both hands, in any suit)
.
NOTE: For any 10 card Super FIT of 8 by 2 or 7 by 3 add 0.5 only if you do NOT have a TOP Honor in the short Trump !
.
Add 1.0 for any 11+ card Super FIT (in one or in both hands, in any suit)
.
If you do NOT hold a bi-color, add 1.5 for any 11+ card Super FIT
.
Immediately add 1.0 to your B# on the fly by the time of the Bidding, when any of the opponents bid your Singleton or Void suit (do not duplicate it later if you discover that this is a "good" Singleton or a "good" Void)
.
Add 1.0 for a “good” Singleton or a “good” Void (a Singleton or a Void not opposing a King)
.
Add 0.5 for AKQx in a side Misfit suit, but only when you will be able to throw a card on that suit (not in the Trump, in both hands)
.
Add 1.0 for AKQxxx … in a side FIT or Misfit suit (not in the Trump, in both hands)


The Negative Adjustments


For NT contracts:

Subtract 0.5 when you have a balanced hand with Aces >= Kings and no Queen(s) or a Jack + Ten in one suit covered by Control
.
Subtract 0.5 if you do NOT have 5 by 3 or better FIT
.
Subtract 0.5 for 2 by 2 cards in a suit with less than 1 Ace + 1 Queen or 1 King (in one or both hands). Never play 3 NT contract with 2 by 2 in a suit with 1 only TOP Honor !!


For suit contracts:

If you have chosen a Misfit for a Trump, your PL with Majors will go 0.5 down (except with 5 by 2 Misfit with at least 1 TOP Honor between the 2 cards), but with Minors your PL will go 1 Down.
For any 6 card suit opposite a Void, your PL will go 1 Down.
For any 7 card suit opposite a Void, your PL will go 0.5 Down.

Subtract 0.5 when you have 4 or more Equivalent Queens (EQ). Do that even with 4 real Queens in one hand! Do NOT do that when you have any 8+ card suit or 6+/5+ bi-color !
.
Subtract 0.5 when you have a Singleton or a Void opposite a Singleton or a Void
.
Subtract 0.5 when you have only Aces in your hand. Do NOT do that when you have any 8+ card suit or 5+/5+ bi-color !
.
Subtract 0.5 when you have 5+ card suit without any Honor Do NOT do that when you have any 6+/5+ bi-color !
.

Your Trump Play Level is equal to your NT Play Level, but only if you have any 5 by 3 or better FIT (4 by 4 FIT will not help you !). If you do not have such FIT, your NT PL will be 1 below than your suit PL.
.
Subtract 1.0 for any King opposite a Void ("bad" Void)
.
Subtract 0.5 for any King opposite a Singleton ("bad" Singleton)
.
Subtract 0.5 for a King + Queen opposite a Void ("semi-bad" Void)
.
Subtract 0.5 for an Ace + Queen opposite a Void ("semi-bad" Void)
.
Subtract 0.5 immediately when Opponents make a barrage JUMP on 3rd or upper Level ?!
.
Subtract 0.5 for any 2 Mirror suits (especially when you have only one FIT) !!
.
NOTE: Mirror suits are 2 by 2, 2 by 3, 3 by 3, 3 by 4 if there is not 2 TOP Honors in the suit !!
.
Subtract 1.0 for full Mirror hands despite of the TOP Honors in the suits !


For any contract:

Subtract 0.5 when you have 4 or more Equivalent Queens (EQ) (even with 4 real Queens in one hand)! Do NOT do that when you have any 8+ card suit or for a 6+/5+ bi-color !
.
Subtract 0.5 when the difference of partners' Base Numbers is >= 6.0
.
Subtract 0.5 when you have only 2+ Aces in your hand. Do NOT do that when you have any 8+ card suit or 5+/5+ bi-color !

.
NEVER play 4 HE or 4 SP with an exact Play level (PL) = 4.0 if you do not have a Singleton or a Void, play 3NT instead !!
That area is the Fp Bermuda Triangle and your contract will be sink !!


The Simple Theory

Find Your Base Number (B#, the contract tricks, your exact strength)
B# = the sum of all Honor & Distributional points minus 2.0
To find your PL (Play Level) for the FIT suit use the sum of both partners' B#s.
Your NT PL = your suit PL if you have a 5 by 3 (or better length) FIT (4 by 4 won’t help!), if you do not have a Void or a Singleton. In any other cases your NT's PL is lower (usually with 1) than your suit's PL.
When your partner discover your exact distribution using the SCOR - SCOR convention (which simultaneously shows the exact length of your Basic suit along with your side suits) and on the next Relay your exact shape, your partner may ask you for your exact B#. Answer by steps. Your 1st step answer must show your initial B# shown by the Opening bid. For any of the next steps you must show a higher B# with 0.5 increments.


Control Points (CP, the Controls)

Ace = Void = 6 CP
King = Singleton = 4 CP
NOTE: The Void must be count for 10 CP (when you are sure that it is opposite an empty of TOP Honors suit).
Also, when asked for CP, show only your real CP, if your partner is aware of your exact distribution.
.
To discover the 1st step CP correct answer, both partners must use the Formula:
CP = 4*B# + 2, along with 3 EQ (Equivalent Queens)
This s the main Formula when you have a balanced hand or an unbalanced hand with 5 or 6 card Basic suit with or without a Singleton !
For a hand with a Void, 2 Singletons or with a 7 card suit the Formula for the 1st step CP answer change to:
CP = 4*B#, along with 4 EQ
.
For a hand with a 8 card suit or with 7 card suit + a Void or 2 Singletons the Formula for the 1st step CP answer change to:
CP = 4*B# - 2, along with 5 EQ
.
In all cases, for any of the next steps answers raise the CP by 2 and lower the EQ by 1.
.
That way, you will discover the exact number of all partner's TOP Honors with 1 only Question. No other bridge system in the world can do it !!


To make 3NT you will need PL >= 4.0+ & 22+ CP
.
To make 4HE or 4SP you will need PL = 3.5 or PL >= 4.5 & 22+ CP
.
To make 5CL or 5DI you will need PL >= 5.5 & 28+ CP
.
To make a Small SLAM you must have PL >= 6.0 & 34+ CP (or 32 CP with 3+ Equivalent Queens (EQ) with both hands).
.
NOTE: A Small SLAM is possible even with 30 CP when you have 2 good FITs (with all TOP Honors) or if you have 1 good FIT + 1 Super Fit of 10+ Trumps with both Controls.
.
To make a GRAND SLAM you must strictly have PL >= 7.5 & 36 or 40 CP (not 38 which are physically impossible !)
.
NOTE: A GRAND SLAM is possible even with 36 CP when you have all 4 Aces + 2 good FITs (with all TOP Honors) or 1 good FIT + 1 Super Fit of 10+ Trumps with both Controls


If your partner asks you directly for your Controls (before asking you for your exact B#) use the Formula to calculate it:

B# = any CP / 4 – 1, where any CP = real + pseudo CP


The Table below shows the approximation between HCP and the Fp B#s (courtesy of Mr. Aleksander Dulevski).

It is useful only when you plan to play NT Contract !!

Notice the arithmetical HCP progression by rising with 3 HCP for any 1.0 Fp count up for easier remembering !

B# .... HCP .......... B# ... HCP .......... B# ... HCP
-1.5 = ~ 2 ...............1.5 = ~12.............. 4.5 = ~21
-1.0 = ~ 4 ...............2.0 = ~13 ............. 5.0 = ~22
-0.5 = ~ 5 .............. 2.5 = ~15 ............. 5.5 = ~24
+0.0 = ~ 6 .............. 3.0 = ~16 ..............6.0 = ~25
+0.5 = ~ 8 .............. 3.5 = ~18 ..............6.5 = ~27
+1.0 = ~ 10 ............. 4.0 = ~19 ............. 7.0 = ~28

NOTE: The table’s HCP shown are for balanced hands (no 5 card suit, no Singleton).
.
If you persist to know your HCP for mild to ambiguous unbalanced hand expect 1 HCP less than the shown HCP. With more unbalanced hands expect 2-3 HCP less than the shown HCP.
.
Remember that B# = 1.0 ~ 10 HCP for the balanced hands (no 5 card suit, no Singleton) & B# = 1.0 ~ 9 HCP for unbalanced hands to be able fast to find the HCP for any B#.
.
Use the Facebook link below to download the FREE Force Point System. No license s needed for playing on non-International Pair or Team Tournaments.
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.
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.
Additional counting only for expert Fp bidders:

Add 0.5 for AKx+… opposite xx in a side suit (not in the Trump)
.
0.25 Count named force*point (where the name of the system came! Count the Honors separately. Not counted if you do not have another 0.25
4 Aces = 0.25 = force*point (in both hands, count the Honors separately)
KJ opposite QXx.. = 0.25

Kx opposite QJx.. = 0.25

QJ opposite Kxx… = 0.25

Qx opposite KJx... = 0.25

AKJTx… = 0.25 = force*point (in one hand, total count = 1.5 + 1.0 + 0.25 = 2.75)

AQJTx… = 0.25 = force*point (in one hand, total count = 1.5 + 0.5 + 0.25 = 2.25)

AJTx… = 0.25 = force*point (in one hand, total count = 1.5 + 0.25 = 1.75)
Ax = 0.25 = force*point (in one hand, total count = 1.5 + 0.25 = 1.75)

KQJ… = 0.25 = force*point (in one hand, total count = 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.25 = 1.75)

KJTx… = 0.25 = force*point (in one hand, total count = 1.0 + 0.25 = 1.25)

QJTx… = 0.25 = force*point (in one hand, total count = 0.5 + 0.25 = 0.75)

Singleton King == 0.25 = force*point (in one hand, total count = 0.5 + 0.25 = 0.75)

xx = 0.25 = force*point (in one hand)


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The corrected 4th edition of "Slam after Slam with Force Point" - the book will be ready by the end of March 2024 in 2 formats: PDF & epub. After that date send SMS to NY based number:
+1 (718) 66 FIT IN (+1 718 663 4846) to obtain more info how to receive both book formats for $7.00

[Pavell]

Pavell, on 2016-May-28, 16:17, said:

I will advertise the day when the book 'Slam after Slam with Force Point' hit the market and Amazon internet site in BBO, but anyway that will be in less than a month. Be the 1st, read it with your partner, then call me in BBO for explanations, if any. After that, create a Team and focus on the goal Bermuda Bowl

The corrected 4th edition will be ready by the end of March 2024 in 2 formats:
PDF & epub.

After that date send SMS to NY based nuber:
+1 (718) 66 FIT IN (+1 718 663 4846) to obtain more info how to receive both book formats for $7.00

[mikeh]

The history of bridge is full of various valuation schemes. Some used fractional points, analogous to what I see proposed above. Others used different integers for the values assigned to face cards (one scheme had aces as 6, another as 7).

Reading books and magazines from those days suggests to me that they all failed…and fail they did…because any improved precision was more than outweighed by the significant memorization and arithmetical load created from trying to use them.

I also suspect that most experts then…and definitely now…appreciate that’s its silly to try to value any hand merely by adding ‘points’, no matter what those points represent. Oh, they’ll promote such methods, in order to sell books or lessons, but I doubt that they actually use them in a serious partnership….I’ve never heard any real expert talk about hands using that sort of language if talking to peers.

We treat a King as 3 points, but what does that actually mean? A king will often take a trick….but not if ruffed or topped by the ace. So is it worth 3 points when the bidding says LHO probably has the ace?

It’s still worth something but what number? It’s going to be worth more if you or partner have the queen, and still more if you also have the Jack, and so on.

Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever attempted to modify the 4321 point count by adjusting those values mid auction or even when seeing, say, AKQ in one’s hand. Even then, a holding of AKQ tight isn’t as strong AKQxx, in terms of trick taking…..which is what hand evaluation is supposed to reflect. And, of course, AKQ tight in a non trump suit is stronger on defence than AKQxx, since the former holding is more likely to cash, etc.

The truth is, it seems to me, that those who spend countless hours designing ‘point count methods’ are akin to people whose idea of being a tourist is studying maps rather than going out into the countryside or the cities. The best maps can provide a lot of information, but they can’t give you the sights, sounds, smells, tastes and so on of actually being there.

So too any point count method can provide a lot of information but the most important information comes from seeing your entire hand and listening to the bidding.

As for the relay….I’ve played relay methods at the highest level of the game. We could, just as Pavel claims for his methods, find exact shape, number and location of all aces, kings and queens and, on hands where we were exploring grand, often key jacks.

I’m now playing with the same partner (after we each took extended breaks from competitive bridge) and we each have our 170+ pages of compressed notes. But we quickly agreed that we’re not playing the method

Why?

In part because of the memory load…we’re not in our 40s any more. But in part because the game is different these days….even ‘little old ladies’ at the club open on garbage or preempt to the 3 level on 6 card suits, etc.

Relays are incredible when the opps stay out. They’re not bad if the interference is low level (a simple overcall, say 2D over our 2C relay actually improves the relay because we gain pass or double in exchange for the 2D step) but any jumps wreak havoc. So while relays are still excellent in uncontested auctions, they’ve lost some of their lustre smply because fewer auctions are uncontested

Also, in part, because we think our T-Walsh approach is very powerful, and we’d have to drastically change our relay structure over 1m openings to accommodate. We do still play some relays…1C 1N is an art gf, but denies an unbalanced hand while our 2D response to our 10-13 1N is also a relay.

I’m biased, but I think our current methods are both easier to use and more powerful than the stuff we played 25 years ago.

Why am I rambling on about this? Because while I applaud any who spend years developing idiosyncratic methods, and recognize that some such might offer technically better tools than are currently in use, I think most such developers lose sight of the need for their method not only to be theoretically valid but also practically useable at the table, not only in terms of memory load but also in terms of playing against real and usually aggressive opps.

Form a good partnership and play tough events and win…then try to promote your methods. Otherwise I suspect that the only people who’d read the book are people who have the same narrow focus on seeking the perfect (but illusory) perfect valuation algorithm. I’ve never met any of them at any WC event. Why do you think that is?

Oh, finally…..no system is ever going to take a non-expert player and transform him or her into someone who can win a Bermuda Bowl.