[rhm]

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-09, 03:25, said:

Yes, I was making somewhat of joke, it would not occur to me to bid 2S rather than 2D hence I said "I thought..." but I see the argument.



I think this is an overbid, you are much more likely to have a 4-4 spade fit after 1C X 2C with 4 spades than you are to have a 5-3 spade fit over a responsive X in this auction. Also, this is a hand type where it seems like a 4-3 spade fit will not play well. Still, the argument that they will often bid 3C is compelling with a club void and then 2S then 3D seems better if it shows this, it just literally would not have occurred to me.

One downside of bidding 2S is that partner might have a good hand and try bidding 3S or 4S with only 4 spades. I mean, I guess it's circular, but I would expect the 2S bidder to usually be 4-5 in the majors unless they are 3523 or 3514. One advantage of usually having 4 spades to bid 2S is that partner can try for game more aggressively (and if he is short in clubs, like 4252, be more aware that you might have 3 spades, but if he has 4234 or 4243 or 4153 he can be pretty confident that you have 4 spades).

Like I said, I have never considered bidding 2S with this hand type, I do not think it's a crazy concept, I did think it was funny that rainer said he did not see why I would have thought 2D was an obvious response, perhaps he gives me too much credit

If the order of the major suits would have been reversed I would concur.
I am not saying that with 4 spades and longer hearts I would never overcall 1H, but I am always reluctant to do so, feeling that to double in the first place with this distribution is more appropriate.
(I also play equal level conversion, which is less standard)
That's why I said in my first post I am not likely to have more than 3 cards in spades when I overcall 1 heart.
Of course if you have no qualms overcalling 1♥ with 4 cards in spades, bidding 2♠ is less clear.

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

bluecalm, on 2012-April-09, 04:55, said:

I keep forgetting there are people out there who play 2D as forcing
In my country 2D as NFB is natural and non-alertable. Everybody plays that

What country is that, where NFB's are not alerted because "everybody plays that"? Perhaps the same country where because everybody plays transfers over 1NT we don't alert or announce that?

[bluecalm]

Quote

What country is that, where NFB's are not alerted because "everybody plays that"? Perhaps the same country where because everybody plays transfers over 1NT we don't alert or announce that?

Yes, it's the same country - Poland.
We don't announce anything (which sucks) we don't alert NFB's or transfers over 1NT (because everybody plays that). If you bid 2D as forcing and don't alert you can run into trouble so be careful if you ever play here

[MrAce]

I have to admit, this type of auctions and bidding is one of my weakest part at bridge. So i found this topic very useful for me.

This is why i also checked this hand with very good players that i know. From what they said and what i have read in this topic so far, my own conclusions are;

- This is a very tough hand to bid at MP. It is easier at IMP ( re south's choice of 2♦ or 2♠)

- I was originally 2♠ bidder with N hand, non forcing, i am % 100 convinced that this hand or this type of hands have much more to it then just bidding a 5 card suit at 2 level even if it is NF. Because the suit i am bidding is above my pd's suit. I like the benefits of starting with DBL with N hand for the reasons Justin explained.

- I also think Rainer and Andy has very valid points (re the opponents will compete thus south must choose 2♠ with the prediction of competition) I am not sure if i would do this without knowing who my pd is, but i would definetely not bid 2♠ at IMPs.

-I was thinking, wrongly, that if opener raises to 3♣, South can use DBL to give perfect description of short ♣ hands that has less than 4♠. But Andy's response to this was satisfactory for me. I was resulting i suppose.

-I also found it interesting, some very good players that i asked this hand, plays DBL by North not denying 3 card ♥ fit ( with hands that are too good for 2♥ but not as good to cue at 3 level)

I love this type of topics, not because i have a lot to offer to readers but i know i have a lot to gain by reading it. So thanks to contributors. This topic also changed my mind about some other auctions that i was seeking answers.

[jogs]

MrAce, on 2012-April-09, 18:09, said:

I have to admit, this type of auctions and bidding is one of my weakest part at bridge. So i found this topic very useful for me.

If by 'this type' you meant contested auctions, everyone bids these badly including the experts.

[MrAce]

jogs, on 2012-April-09, 19:38, said:

If by 'this type' you meant contested auctions, everyone bids these badly including the experts.

No, i didnt mean contested auctions in general, but i can see it sounded like that. I will not write a long speech about my bridge background, i am what i am and i was what i was. But for personal reasons i had to quit bridge for a very long time. When i came back (in bbo) i only played online bridge and i found myself bidding these type of hands (north hand for example) a little too black or white. This type of topics help me to hear the more flexible usage of bids (such as DBL by N hand or response to DBL by South hand ) which i used to be very comfy and accurate in the past. I feel like the years i have been away from bridge, has taken something that i was good at, or at least i thought i was good at and topics like that and the well written opinions is making me feel like i found one of the marbels that i lost. ( there are a lot of them though )

It is like...you bid something but you feel something seriously bothering you inside ? Feel like you are bidding sloppy ? After the long break from bridge i have this feeling in general about most of my bids, and these type of topics are opening the small boxes that i locked somewhere in my head in the past. ( In the long break time from bridge, my memory loss was not only limited to bridge btw )

[jogs]

This is the way I see it. Think of yourself as a five year old child. Where do tricks come from? Most bridge theorist never asked.
Bidding has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. Larry Cohen told us that tricks are correlated to trumps. Online bridge with its minis allowed us to play against opponents from all around the world. It's a lot harder to defend than declare.
The bridge books written in the fifties authors told us to overcall cautiously. Don't risk -500 against a part score.
J6543 2 KQ4 A652
RHO opens 1C. They all preached pass. Today many players bid 1S. Bad suit and indifferent hand. 1S preempts both opponents and partner from bidding hearts. Bidding spades only leads to bad scores when advancer overbids based solely on HCP. If he threads carefully with possible misfits, the bid should be safe.
The whole approach to bidding has changed in the 20 years. Everyone is preempting more frequently. In the U.S. new suit is mostly forcing. On 40% of the boards the points are divided nearly equally between the two pairs. When opponents open one of a suit, there is at most a 3% chance our side has 25+ HCP. On these contested auctions the British style of new suit non forcing is more practical. Finding the correct strain is more critical than finding the unlikely game contract.
Evaluating trick potential should be based on both HCP and trump fit. Anders Wigren/Mike Lawrence writes that shortness of the secondary side suits is another variable in generating tricks. Quality of the trump suit affects the tricks. Strong 4+ side suits adds to tricks. Only during an auction there are too few bids available to exchange info on that many variables. One must decide which variables are the most useful for this board.