[kgr]

We have Confit in our system that we took from another pair at the club.
1NT-2C (1NT:15-17 / 2C is relay to 2D)
2D-2NT = Confit

CONFIT is used with slam-going hand with these distributions: 2-2-4-5, 2-2-5-4, any 4432 and any 4333
Opener first shows his Italian Controls (A=2 and K=1):
3C = 1-3
3D = 4
3H = 5
3S = 6
3NT = 7
4C = 8

Then we look for a fit:
• After 3C, 3D asks the number of controls
• If responder bids NT, this is to play.
• Both bid their cheapest 4 card. Only 4 cards with A,K or Q (?)
• If a suit is repeated, it shows a 5 card.
• A jump to 4NT/5NT (or 3NT-4NT; 4NT-5NT is quantitative)
• 5NT after asking for Q-trumps asks for extras.
• The NT-opener may not raise the level, except to show a 5-card minor with a good hand
• After a fit is found, one over one asks Q-trumps. If negative then bid lowest of NT or fit; if positive show other Q. Other bids are SSA (asking 3th control).
• If responder bids a suit that was skipped by one of both hands, this asks for queen of trumps with last bid suit as trumps.
• Opener shows fit by raising last suit or by bidding suit that was skipped by one of both hands.
(See also http://www.bridgebas...-hands-after-1n)
= = = = =
Questions:
- What is the point range responder should have to start this? Is 15+ ok? (is there an upper limit?).
- Is it ok to ask controls without knowing if opener is min/max (the controls will tell you)?
- Does this system look useful?
- Is it important to require A, K or Q to bid a 4c suit?
= = = = = = = = =
I generated some hands to verify this:
1NT-2C
2D-2NT = Confit
???

AQJx=Tx =AJx=Kxxx / Kx=AKJx=Txxx=Axx
3H-4H (5ctrls(11 tot) – 4cH)
4S-5NT (4cS-Quantitative)
Pass
=> 3NT better (Nat: 1NT-2C-2S-4NT)

QJx=AKx =xxx=AQxx / AKxx=QJTx=QJx=Kxx
3H-3NT (5ctrls (9 tot) – 4cC)
Pass
Or?:
3H-3S (5ctrls (9 tot) – 4cC)
3NT- Pass
=> Ok (Nat: 1NT-4NT-6NT??)

Kx=AKx =Jxxxx=Axx / Axxx=xx=AKQ=KQxx
3S-4C (6ctrls (12 tot) – 4cC)
4D-4S (4cD – 4cS)
4NT -6NT (opener cannot bid 5D – responder cannot ask more)
=> 7D better (Nat: 1NT-2C-2D-6NT)

Kx=Axxx =Jxx=AKQx / ATx=KJx=AKQx=Txx
3S-4D (6ctrls (12 tot) –4cD)
4H-6NT (4cH)
=> Ok (Nat: 1NT-2C-2H-6NT??)

AQJx=KTx =Qx=AJxx / Kxxx=Qxx=AKx=KQx
3H-3S (5ctrls (10 tot) –4cS)
4S-4NT (Fit S - Ask SQ)
5D-6S (SQ & DQ )
=> Ok (Nat: 1NT-2C-2S-4C-4H-4NT-5S-6S)

QJx=AQT=AJx=Qxxx / AKT=xxx =Qxx=AKJx
3D-3NT (4ctrls (9 tot))
=> Ok (Nat: 1NT-2C-2D-6NT??)

QJx=AKxx=QJx=Kxx / Axx=xxx =AKx=AJTx
3D-4C (4ctrls (11 tot) – 4cC)
4H-5NT (4cH – quant)
6NT
=> NOT OK!! (Nat: 1NT-4NT-6NT??)

AKQT=Jxx=Qxxx=Ax / xxx=AKQx =ATxx=Kx
3H-4D (5ctrls (11 tot) – 4cD)
4S-4NT (D-fit – Ask DQ)
5S – 6D (DQ & SQ)
=> Ok (6NT better) (Nat: 1NT-2C-2S-4NT-6NT??)

Kxx=AQx=xxx=AQTx / Axx=KJx =AQJx=Kxx
3H-4D (5ctrls (11 tot) – 4cD)
4NT-6NT (no 4cH)
=> Ok (Nat: 1NT-6NT)

Axx=xxx =KQJ=AKxx / KTxx=AKx=Axxx=Jx
3S-4D (6ctrls (12 tot) – 4cD)
4NT-5NT (no 4cH/4cS)
6NT
=> Not Ok (Nat: 1NT-2C-2D-3NT)

[kenrexford]

Too greasy.

[straube]

I think that balanced hands that are strong enough to contemplate the 6-level are strong enough to investigate slam and sign off in 4N etc if things don't look good. Save the valuable bidding room before 3N for distributional slam tries, etc.

[gnasher]

kgr, on 2012-April-02, 11:00, said:

- What is the point range responder should have to start this? Is 15+ ok? (is there an upper limit?).

If responder can find out how strong opener is, I think responder should be able to bid Confit on a good 14 upwards. A combined 31-count with a 4-4 fit and good controls usually makes a good slam.

If you can't find out opener's strength, responder should probably be 16+.

Quote

- Is it ok to ask controls without knowing if opener is min/max (the controls will tell you)?

No, you need to ask him what he thinks of his hand too. There is a world of difference between AQJx Kxx AK10x xx and Axxx KJx Kxxx Ax. I suggest that opener bids 3♣ with a maximum, and 3♦+ with a minimum.

Quote

- Does this system look useful?

In my experience it looks better in theory than in practice. I have switched from CONFIT to a more natural style, where we limit opener's hand, then find a trump suit, then discuss what level to play at.

If you're going to play this, you should find a way to deal with off-shape openers. A 6322 or 5422 shape goes up in value significantly once you put a lot of high cards opposite it.

Quote

- Is it important to require A, K or Q to bid a 4c suit?

No. Jxxx opposite KQxx is still a good trump suit. It might be wise to skip very weak suits, but even xxxx is a good trump suit opposite KQJx.

Once you've agreed a suit, you don't have to play there - if you have a lot of short honours, you may be able to judge to go back to notrumps later.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2012-April-02, 12:19

[kgr]

kenrexford, on 2012-April-02, 11:19, said:

Too greasy.

I don't understand what you mean

[kgr]

straube, on 2012-April-02, 11:51, said:

I think that balanced hands that are strong enough to contemplate the 6-level are strong enough to investigate slam and sign off in 4N etc if things don't look good. Save the valuable bidding room before 3N for distributional slam tries, etc.

We can bid most distributional hands after 1NT opening

[kgr]

Thanks for this answer. Some remarks below, but in fact I need to think about your suggestions. So my remarks are certainly no critic on your answers

gnasher, on 2012-April-02, 12:14, said:

If responder can find out how strong opener is, I think responder should be able to bid Confit on a good 14 upwards. A combined 31-count with a 4-4 fit and good controls usually makes a good slam.
If you can't find out opener's strength, responder should probably be 16+.

We have some way to bid quantitative 4NT/5NT. And your 31 limit with a fit suggests that 15 is a good limit.

gnasher, on 2012-April-02, 12:14, said:

No, you need to ask him what he thinks of his hand too. There is a world of difference between AQJx Kxx AK10x xx and Axxx KJx Kxxx Ax. I suggest that opener bids 3♣ with a maximum, and 3♦+ with a minimum.

Sounds correct. Maybe we can use 3NT for 1-3 controls with a minimum hand; 3C for minimum hand with 4-6 controls; and keep rest of the system the same?

gnasher, on 2012-April-02, 12:14, said:

In my experience it looks better in theory than in practice. I have switched from CONFIT to a more natural style, where we limit opener's hand, then find a trump suit, then discuss what level to play at.

If you're going to play this, you should find a way to deal with off-shape openers. A 6322 or 5422 shape goes up in value significantly once you put a lot of high cards opposite it.

better to find 31 pnt 4-4 slams then also being able to handle 6322 or 5422 by opener?
Sorry, but this sounds a bit like throwing away something good because it is not perfect.

gnasher, on 2012-April-02, 12:14, said:

No. Jxxx opposite KQxx is still a good trump suit. It might be wise to skip very weak suits, but even xxxx is a good trump suit opposite KQJx.

Once you've agreed a suit, you don't have to play there - if you have a lot of short honours, you may be able to judge to go back to notrumps later.

It will probably be difficult with this system to play NT after a fit is found.
Thanks,
Koen

[kenrexford]

kgr, on 2012-April-02, 13:03, said:

I don't understand what you mean

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Duck_confit

[gnasher]

kgr, on 2012-April-02, 13:17, said:

better to find 31 pnt 4-4 slams then also being able to handle 6322 or 5422 by opener?
Sorry, but this sounds a bit like throwing away something good because it is not perfect.

I meant that you should use unusual jumps by opener to show these shapes. For example:
...2NT-4♦ = 6 clubs
...2NT-4♥ = 6 diamonds
...2NT-4♠ = 2245
...2NT-4NT = 2254

...2NT-3♦;3♥-5♣ = 2425
...2NT-3♦;3♥-5♦ = 2452

You could even assign meanings to sequences like
...2NT-3♦;3♥-4♠
...2NT-3♦;3♥-4NT

[kgr]

kenrexford, on 2012-April-02, 14:14, said:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Duck_confit

Looks good

[kgr]

gnasher, on 2012-April-02, 16:15, said:

I meant that you should use unusual jumps by opener to show these shapes. For example:
...2NT-4♦ = 6 clubs
...2NT-4♥ = 6 diamonds
...2NT-4♠ = 2245
...2NT-4NT = 2254

...2NT-3♦;3♥-5♣ = 2425
...2NT-3♦;3♥-5♦ = 2452

You could even assign meanings to sequences like
...2NT-3♦;3♥-4♠
...2NT-3♦;3♥-4NT

Ok, I see. But we will first see that we can get the normal sequences correct.
Thanks

[Free]

In my experience with something similar it's useful to know if opener is min or max. I'd rather use the 3C response as any min and 3D+ for maximums. It's difficult to construct max with only 1 or 2 controls, so you won't lose much.

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so I'll comment on the rest later.

[Free]

deleted - double post

[Dark Widow]

Free, on 2012-April-03, 09:00, said:

In my experience with something similar it's useful to know if opener is min or max. I'd rather use the 3C response as any min and 3D+ for maximums. It's difficult to construct max with only 1 or 2 controls, so you won't lose much.

Isn't it a shame that someone did not come up with something similar to this at any point. Perhaps adding a modern twist (Control points) to a well-established method for handling such hands might be worth investigating.