[jillybean]

Both vulnerable, MP, 3rd seat

---

[Gerben42]

3♣ under normal circumstances. Okay you have a minimum but you have close to zero defence and great intermediates. 1NT if I desperately need a top.

[jillybean]

I need more partners like you lot @ the club

[BunnyGo]

I think you've posted a 100% question

[FrancesHinden]

If you are playing club matchpoints, it depends on your expected position in the field. If you expect to win by taking normal actions and receiving gifts, then this is a pass. If you don't expect to win unless you generate some good boards from nowhere, this is a 3C or 1C opening.

To be honest I probably prefer to open it 1C than 3C. I'm going to be really unhappy if 3C ends the auction, and I don't want to e.g. push them into a making 3NT that the field isn't bidding.

[AlexJonson]

This is a pass IMO.

[Bbradley62]

 FrancesHinden, on 2012-April-01, 13:00, said:

If you expect to win by taking normal actions and receiving gifts, then this is a pass. If you don't expect to win unless you generate some good boards from nowhere, this is a 3C or 1C opening.

This sounds backwards to me. If you expect to win by taking normal actions, then you should want to take the same action as the majority of the field, which appears to be 3♣, based on the poll results. If you need to generate some good boards from nowhere, you might pass or open 1♣ to potentially get different results than "everyone else".

[nigel_k]

3♣ for me. I don't really pay much attention to the rule of 2 and 3. Opponents quite often make a mistake when you preempt. In any case, I'm not so sure the field is passing this hand.

[mike777]

one club

1nt second choice.

[FrancesHinden]

 Bbradley62, on 2012-April-01, 14:00, said:

This sounds backwards to me. If you expect to win by taking normal actions, then you should want to take the same action as the majority of the field, which appears to be 3♣, based on the poll results. If you need to generate some good boards from nowhere, you might pass or open 1♣ to potentially get different results than "everyone else".

I admit I didn't look at the poll results before posting.
I don't think the BBO forum poll results reflect normal club bridge. I think virtually no-one at my local duplicate club would open that hand 3C.

[Phil]

3♣. I've never bought into the argument, "the field sucks, so I will make the same bad bid as the field", and try to play the hand better.

This is a completely normal 3rd seat preempt. Sometimes I will be -200 against a part score, but that's a real half-empty approach.

[phil_20686]

 FrancesHinden, on 2012-April-01, 14:55, said:

I admit I didn't look at the poll results before posting.
I don't think the BBO forum poll results reflect normal club bridge. I think virtually no-one at my local duplicate club would open that hand 3C.

Sure, but bidding 3C here at MP is just like a giant winner. Am amazed you prefer to pass. I mean, at teams, sure, lack of discipline can cost you when partner tries for game or to sac or something, but here its just a huge and frequent winner when the opps limit was 8 tricks in spades, or they dont compete and you are -1 vs 140.

I can certainly see a school of thought that would pass these hands at teams. I would in first or second, as it doesnt fit my two top honours rule that helps partner bid 3N etc, but at MP I really think passing is a significant loser, no matter what the field is doing, and particularly in third seat.

[neilkaz]

This looks like a routine 3rd seat preempt. Unless we cannot bring in the 10♣ we should take 6 tricks red vs red. We can expect to take only 1 trick on defense. I like making life more difficult for the opps and think 3♣ clear,esp. at MP's, although I preempt in 3rd seat playing IMPs also. I'd also preempt this in 1st seat at MP's.

[Cthulhu D]

As always, partner's opening style is useful to know (the lighter they open and the more aggressively they pre-empt, the chances of a good board go up), but if I was playing with myself this is a fine 3 clubs. My good intermediates mean a penalty is unlikely. Also, I think you're massively better off pre-empting if you play ekrens because it means partner doesn't have 9 cards in the majors and thus they have a major suit fit.

As far as Frances' question goes, I expect to get a good result in club matchpoints if I just play the field, but I need to generate good boards from nothing to get 1st.

[jillybean]

Fortunately, my regular partner does expect this style preempt from me.
He has suggested that 3rd seat preempts ask suggests the suit NOT to be led, unlike in 1st, 2nd seat where we do want it led. I like it. Does anyone else have this agreement?

[P_Marlowe]

 jillybean, on 2012-April-01, 23:26, said:

Fortunately, my regular partner does expect this style preempt from me.
He has suggested that 3rd seat preempts ask for the suit NOT to be led, unlike in 1st, 2nd seat where we do want it led. I like it. Does anyone else have this agreement?

Why would you ever want to make this kind of agreement?

The preempt showes 6-7 cards in the suit, sometimes broken, sometimes not.
Espesially if partner has 2 cards, he better starts developing my long suit.

With kind rehards
Marlowe

[squealydan]

 jillybean, on 2012-April-01, 23:26, said:

Fortunately, my regular partner does expect this style preempt from me.
He has suggested that 3rd seat preempts ask for the suit NOT to be led, unlike in 1st, 2nd seat where we do want it led. I like it. Does anyone else have this agreement?

Is it frustrating to then pick up a solid pre-empt of KQJTxxx and bust when you happen to be third to bid?

At my usual club I'd expect over 90% of players to open this in third seat, and probably 80% of them to open in first or second, so passing would definitely be the anti-field action. They see a weak hand with a seven-card suit, they reach for the stop card.

[Cthulhu D]

Maybe it just boils down to needing to exercise some judgement when you can see partner was in a situation where pre-empting has big +EV and recognise that he may have perpetrated some awful crime when making his pre-empt? So if another lead jumps out make that anyway, but if nothing else particularly amazing springs to mind the 'standard' lead makes sense?

[P_Marlowe]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-April-02, 01:11, said:

Maybe it just boils down to needing to exercise some judgement when you can see partner was in a situation where pre-empting has big +EV and recognise that he may have perpetrated some awful crime when making his pre-empt? So if another lead jumps out make that anyway, but if nothing else particularly amazing springs to mind the 'standard' lead makes sense?

He may have "perpetrated some awful crime", or he may have not.

Besides: Peoble always assume, that 3rd level openers are always weaker than normal, a 3rd level
opener may also be to strong.
The point is, 3rd level openrs have just a higher variance, the EV remains unaffected, but hitting
the Ev, becomes less likely.

And if you have a better led, well even oppossite a 1st / 2nd seat opener, you are always free to
choose this.
The requirement / the points to say, a alternative is better, but you are always free to do lead a
different suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gnasher]

 FrancesHinden, on 2012-April-01, 14:55, said:

I think virtually no-one at my local duplicate club would open that hand 3C.

Maybe it's time to find a better game?