[jules101]

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1) What's your bid?


RHO's preempts are renowned for being "aggressive", especially with shapely hands, eg 6-5s etc.

2) Should knowledge of RHO's "style" influence your decision, or will you make same decision whoever RHO is?!

[billw55]

Get out the chopper

[phil_20686]

Assuming you play t/o doubles you really have to pass I think. On a v lucky day partner will reopen with a dble and you will be laughing all the way to the bank.

[gwnn]

Depends on your agreements. I think x and pass can both be right/wrong. Sorry for sitting on the fence. Personally I never feel right when I pass a hand this strong so I tend to double but I know some very good players (like 655321?) pass on hands like this.

[daveharty]

Double. I expect to beat it the vast majority of the time; If partner pulls, he has a weak distributional hand, which will play well opposite mine. Sometimes they make it but that's the price of doing business. I don't know many people who play a double of a 4S opening bid as "purely" takeout. Also, I would make the same call whether RHO is Grandma Phyllis or Jeff Meckstroth, but I would expect GP to go down a little more.

[billw55]

If double is takeout, what is 4NT?

[gwnn]

billw55, on 2012-March-30, 07:19, said:

If double is takeout, what is 4NT?

two-suited.

Anyway, bidding 4NT on a 1444 is not optimal when your partner wanted to pass it on 4333 (yes, this example is slightly dramatic but the fact is that if you bid 4NT you are committing your partnership to play on the 5-level, something that is not usually right even in an 8-card or 9-card fit).

[phil_20686]

daveharty, on 2012-March-30, 07:15, said:

Double. I expect to beat it the vast majority of the time; If partner pulls, he has a weak distributional hand, which will play well opposite mine. Sometimes they make it but that's the price of doing business. I don't know many people who play a double of a 4S opening bid as "purely" takeout. Also, I would make the same call whether RHO is Grandma Phyllis or Jeff Meckstroth, but I would expect GP to go down a little more.

I guess the problem here is that these hands are rare, but doubling on them affects partners actions a little bit on a wide range of weak distributional hands. Most of the time I double he will expect me to be short in spades with support for all the other suits. If you double on these hands you are making it harder for partner to pull you when he has a 5431 hand and think its will be a good sac vs a typical t/o double, particularly at these colours. This would be a very different problem if we were red and they were green, as partner pulls much less often.

I mean I would expect partner to pull for sure with xxx KJxxxx xxx x, now I am sure to go off at the 5 level when I had 200/300 on offer. If you think partner shouldnt pull with this hand to protect you when you are strong bal then you cannot double 2S with 0 AQxx KJxxx Kxxx as partner isnt pulling when its right anyway and you are missing your great sac vs a vul 4S.

I mean I don't feel like there are firm answers here but I feel like my style is working pretty well when these hands come up and it involves passing with these hands.

[billw55]

gwnn, on 2012-March-30, 07:25, said:

two-suited.

Anyway, bidding 4NT on a 1444 is not optimal when your partner wanted to pass it on 4333 (yes, this example is slightly dramatic but the fact is that if you bid 4NT you are committing your partnership to play on the 5-level, something that is not usually right even in an 8-card or 9-card fit).

... and what level am I committing to if I double for takeout?

[phil_20686]

billw55, on 2012-March-30, 07:46, said:

... and what level am I committing to if I double for takeout?

You are committing to eitehr playing at the 5 level, or defending 4Sx.


In fact you gain more than this, as if partner is 55 he has to guess to find your best suit if you bid 4N, but over dble he has a 4N bid available himself as two places to play, and that is also a large gain.

[wyman]

I would double -- it's just not in me to pass with this good a hand over 4S. The X is for takeout (in that it does not promise a trump stack), but partner passes with balanced hands. He'll bid with a shapely hand. Partner can -- if you have this agreement -- bid 4N (Lebensohl-esque relay to 5C) to show a very weak hand that wants to play 5 (and only 5) of something, or he can bid 5X directly with some cards. I think we have good prospects if partner bids here, since I have a control-rich 18, but if he passes, I expect we'll collect a tidy sum in 4Sx.

[ggwhiz]

Double here.

My partnership agreement is takeoutish but you must pass unless you think you can make your bid.
With so few values left for pard they are 90% to leave it in unless they have the kind of shape that probably will make something.

[mgoetze]

I thought standard is that one play optional doubles here, and that optional doubles basically show a strong balanced hand, which is what we have. So, double for me.

[Phil]

Good problem and not just from the aspects of the posted hand.

When playing against aggro preemptors, there is an emotional reaction to 'punish the bastards'. Its the same basic response a lot of strong club pairs have when their opponents have the temerity to step into their auctions. When this happens you need to set the animal response aside and consider the problem from partner's standpoint, and try to make the most profitable decision. You might come back to your initial urge, although that urge is also useful for making a call in tempo.

mgoetze said:

I thought standard is that one play optional doubles here, and that optional doubles basically show a strong balanced hand, which is what we have. So, double for me.

The only thing about a double being optional is that partner frequently passes.

What is the likelihood of that here? Unless RHO is certifiable, partner has spade shortness. xxx / xx are possible but not likely, and I think that is what the doublers are hoping for. A singleton is more likely. This does not mean that partner is automatically pulling our double but with a six card suit, or 10 cards in two suits, or a decent hand with 5-4, I would expect a pull.

However, after lot of consideration, I am going with my inner gorilla and doubling. I don't want to be content with a likely 200 or 300 against 400 or 450 (doubling wins 3-6 IMPs) even though its more likely we are -50 or -100 against +200 or 300 (doubling loses 6-9 IMPs).

Much more importantly, I believe that 500/800 happens often enough to win 7 or 11. Even 1100 is reasonably possible against some of the preempts I have seen. Reaching a good slam is also possible, but is less than 10% in my view, but they contribute to the EV of doubling.

Someone with more time can come up with a reasonable matrix.

[mikeh]

We hold 18 hcp and we can expect RHO to hold at least the spade KQ, so partner's expected strength is at best around 8-9. He'll need a lot more than his share of the hcp to double, so if your experience suggests passing in the hope/expectation of a double by partner...may I suggest you invest in lottery tickets?

I can't see passing here, altho I agree with Phil's point about needing to set aside one's emotional instinct and thinking carefully.

Yes, we can all construct hands on which partner will pull to a failing 5 level contract, but that way of thinking is losing brige...I know....I do it far too often myself.

There are far more hands on which he will pass, and still others on which he will bid to a making contract....it's not as if we have borderline values. Not only that, but if we have slam, we are far more likely to be able to reach it after we double than after we pass. I'm not doubling to reach slam, but I am also not going to let the low-frequency risk of his pulling to an unmakeable spot deter me from bidding with almost half the deck in my hand.

[gnasher]

If I played double as "optional", which I understand to mean strong balanced, I'd double, obviously.

I usually play the double as "takeout", which means that I expect partner to take it out when he has short spades and a high ratio of offense to defence. Partner probably does have that, and we're not likely to make anything at the five level. Playing takeout doubles, therefore, I would pass.

One concept I don't understand is agreeing to play takeout doubles, but doubling on hands where you don't want partner to take it out.

[MickyB]

Easy pass, easy plus score. Double won't get passed very often.

[gwnn]

It is not a dichotomy. I like helene_t's expression here: how penaltish is this double? Takeout describes the lower end of the spectrum, optional is towards the middle. The more penaltish you play this x as, the less you will pull it. This is perfectly obvious. Everyone will x on a balanced 23 count and everyone will x on a 1444 23 count. The question is how weaker you will go with the two shapes. grrrr

[neilkaz]

billw55, on 2012-March-30, 07:19, said:

If double is takeout, what is 4NT?

Decades ago, with my dad we played that X was penalty here and 4NT was takeout. 4NT was only take out after a 4♠ preempt. Of course the modern way is that 4NT is two places to play.

Anyhow, I X with the given hand which I play as basically optional. We could be setting them 2 or even 3.

[wank]

i pass. p doesn't have many spades so we can't expect him to pass too often and there's a good chance he'll bid 5♥ which isn't nice. they're vul v not - we shoud get a decent score from 4s minus several