[mgoetze]

I've heard of a modern style where people play "intermediate jump overcalls" only when vulnerable. I've never seen anyone play it, so it must be pretty rare I guess.

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out what this style actually consists of. My research so far indicates that an IJO shows a decent 6-card or very excellent 5-card suit with about 12-16 HCP (i.e. starting at solid opening bid ending just below double-then-bid). I have some questions:

(1) If (1♦)-2♠ is an IJO, is (1♦)-3♠ still a WJO or is it an IJO with 7 spades?
(2) Do people do this for minors also? Marshal Miles apparently gives A8 J6 AKQT85 QT8 as (1♥)-3♦ and K9 8 AJ98754 AQ6 as (1♥)-2♦, would that sound normal to the average "IJO when V" player?
(3) Does it make any sense to differentiate further and play IJOs only v/nv, or does the philosophy really only revolve around our vulnerability?
(4) Could someone summarise the inferences in auctions starting with a simple overcall?

[cherdano]

I think a good definition for an IJO in a major at the 2-level is:
A hand that would open 1M and rebid 2M, but has a very good suit and would be afraid to miss games this way.

12-counts would be unusual but possible with aces and a very good suit. I would never do it with a 5-card suit.

They are not very common, but some fairly unknown players like Bob Hamman or Justin Lall like them very much.

[Zelandakh]

This "modern style" was popular in England 20 or 30 years ago. (1) The double jumps were always preemptive. (2) I have never seen a pair play IJOs in only some suits, nor allow them with 5 card suits (perhaps that is the new twist though!). (3) Yes, you can do this only at red if you prefer; more common is any time we are vulnerable though. (4) The main inference is that bidding our suit and then re-bidding it no longer shows this hand. If you play traditional IJOs then it is weaker (=> usually bad bidding => main reason they died out); if you play limited IJOs then it is stronger and there is a gap between the top of the IJO range and the bottom of the double-then-bid range. I think this approach, perhaps something like 10-14, makes the most sense.

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on 2012-March-27, 04:56, said:

(4) The main inference is that bidding our suit and then re-bidding it no longer shows this hand. If you play traditional IJOs then it is weaker (=> usually bad bidding => main reason they died out); if you play limited IJOs then it is stronger and there is a gap between the top of the IJO range and the bottom of the double-then-bid range. I think this approach, perhaps something like 10-14, makes the most sense.

The Marshall Miles excerpt I found on Google Books stated: simple overcall then rebid suit is a more distributional hand than IJO which is more HCP-oriented.

[P_Marlowe]

Ron Klinger did discuss them in Modern Losing Trick Count as well.

His statement was that

WJS pose no real problem for good players, but for the player up to a certain level.
IJS pose real problems for good players.

My conclusion from this:

The thing in favour of WJS is, that the frequency is higher, and unless you only
play Bermuda Bowl or regular against World Class Experts, the advantage that IJS
may have will be lost due to lower frequence.

And you can improve the effectivity of WJS, if you make the bid better defined,
at least in certain situations.
We play WJS - but at certain colors, the WJS will be a IJS (we try to alert the
opponents, that the WJS may be quite strong, sometimes.)

I would not only take our vulnerability into consideration, but also the
vulnerability of teh opponents.

And if you look closer, what may consitute as a WJS in certain situations, than
it may be the case, that IJS are played.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gnasher]

I think "intermediate jump overcall" means a hand that would open at the one-level, rebid two of the suit, and not be concerned at seeing a singleton trump in dummy. That makes it similar to a fourth-seat weak-two opening.

Here are some threads:
http://www.bridgebas...page__p__371957 (despite the name)
http://www.bridgebas...-strong-enough/

mgoetze, on 2012-March-26, 22:32, said:

(2) Do people do this for minors also? Marshal Miles apparently gives A8 J6 AKQT85 QT8 as (1♥)-3♦ and K9 8 AJ98754 AQ6 as (1♥)-2♦, would that sound normal to the average "IJO when V" player?

I would call the first one a "strong jump overcall".

The second one looks a bit too good for an IJO too. Was Miles really saying this is too weak?

Quote

(3) Does it make any sense to differentiate further and play IJOs only v/nv, or does the philosophy really only revolve around our vulnerability?

The opponents' vulnerability is certainly relevant. The possible gain from preempting is greater when the opponents are vulnerable than when they're not, so a WJO has more value at game-all than at adverse. It's just a matter of where you choose to draw the line.

I think Justin once said he prefers to play them only at adverse, but Hamman seems to like playing them whenever he's vulnerable:
http://usbf.org/inde...fid=874&pid=547
http://www.clairebri...man-mahmood.pdf

Some English pairs play intermediate at all vulnerabilities, or at all vulnerabilities except favourable. These tend to be the pairs one hopes to meet on the first round of a Swiss Teams, so I wouldn't recommend that style.

Personally I like to play them preemptive at all vulnerabilities, even though that makes them fairly rare at adverse.

Quote

(4) Could someone summarise the inferences in auctions starting with a simple overcall?

I think the only difference is that bidding and rebidding your suit is either normal strength but without a great suit, or the upper end of a WJO. But I haven't played IJOs for more than 20 years (and have no plans to switch) so my thinking may be out of date.

[Phil]

I cannot add anything to the fine posts by Cherdano and Gnasher.

I'd like to mention I have seen Justin overcall at the two level a little lighter vulnerable than what is probably standard, for instance:

x Kxx AJTxxx xxx
xxx x xxxx AKQxx

Playing IJO's allows you to stretch the lower a limit a little, assuming that if you added an Ace to either of these (and a 6th club to the 2nd), they would fit within the definition of an IJO.

[nigel_k]

I play IJO when vulnerable. It should always be a good six card suit and the minimum strength should be tied to your minimum strength to double and then bid - a king less at the three level.

E.g. if they open 1♥ and your minimum to double then bid 3♦ is Kx Ax AQJxxx Kx, then your minimum for an IJO should be the same hand without one of the kings.

At the two level it can be slightly lighter as there is room to invite.

[JLOGIC]

I do in fact play these vulnerable (not just at adverse). I know Joe plays it with me vul, but with curtis only at r/w. A lot of people in my general bridge circle play this either vul or r/w, probably due to group think.

Anyways, the main idea of it is that I would never want to overcall 2H r/r or r/w on xx KJxxxx Axx xx type hands, I'd be happy to overcall 1H. I know I have posted something long about this in the forums before. Thus, weak jump overcalls are rarely used by me when I'm vul, so intermediate seems better.

If your style is to make weak jump overcalls on a lot of hands with a 6 card suit and you think that is good, intermediate is probably not for you (and I think that is a good style w/r at least for sure, hence not playing it). Maybe there is not that much difference in w/w and r/r but that is my cutoff, I understand playing them only r/w or only when not w/r and maybe that makes more sense.

To answer the OP for how I play them:

1) I play a double jump is preemptive, but generally still a good hand vul (eg I had xxx AQJTxxxx Kx x at the recent nationals r/w). A double jump intermediate overcall would usually qualify for double then bid for me.

2) Yes, a single jump to the 3 level is intermediate for me. As pclayton mentioned, I will often overcall light at the 2 level these days if it's like a 3D opener, I prefer playing this way but again it's a style thing.

3) Yes imo

4) Less than people think imo. I think people are too black and white, things like suit quality, side suits, etc matter, it's not just a linear scale based on HCP or playing strength. Similarly, I don't think opening 1S and rebidding 2S shows more than opening 2S if you play sound weak 2s or anything, I open 1S with KJxxxx Axx Qx xx but I open 2S with KQJTxx x KJx xxx even though the 2nd hand is better, a weak 2 to me implies something about suit quality. Likewise, I would not overcall an IJO with Qxxxxx AKx AKx x even if the playing strength is similar if I find a fit to hands that I would overcall with an IJO. To me it is just about me not wanting to overcall a WJO when I can bid one with hands that many people would, so I don't play WJOs. I think both WJOs and IJOs are specific to more than playing strength/HCP, so there are not that many inferences.

For instance, some people think 1H 1S 2H p p 2S is stronger or weaker depending on if you play WJO or SJO, but I could have a bad suit and a good hand for that, or I could have a good suit and a bad hand if playing IJO. Likewise, playing WJO, I could have a bad suit and mediocre hand, or a side suit, or whatever, or I could have an IJO hand type. Since my partner passed, I'm just saying I am not worried about missing game but think it's right to balance. Things don't always fit neatly into tight ranges when I have bad suits or a side AKQx that I might be hoping to get to but the auction doesn't help getting to it later imo.

[kenrexford]

IJO obv also in passout.

[mgoetze]

gnasher, on 2012-March-27, 05:45, said:

The second one looks a bit too good for an IJO too. Was Miles really saying this is too weak?

"Although the topic of this chapter is major-suit overcalls, I might mention that a vulnerable jump overcall in a minor should be slightly stronger (since it is usually at the three-level) and should show a hand suitable for play at notrump. Over 1♥ you should bid 3♦ with ♠A8 ♥J6 ♦AKQT85 ♣QT8 but only 2♦ with ♠K9 ♥8 ♦AJ98754 ♣AQ6. You don't want to encourage partner to bid 3NT opposite the latter hand unless he has both a heart stopper and a good diamond fit." (Competitive Bidding in the 21st Century, p. 24-25)

[mgoetze]

Hi Justin,

thanks very much for your input. After reading everything here and also the threads Andy linked I still don't feel like I have a very good handle on what an IJO at the 3-level should look like. Could you give some examples maybe? TIA.

[JLOGIC]

One trick more than a 2 level overcall heh. Something like AKQTxxx and an ace or so.