[mgoetze]

Vampyr, on 2012-March-26, 01:58, said:

Don't most of our defences to Multi include things like: Pass and then double is... double and then double is... It's nice to know there is going to be a second chance.

I don't know what your defences include but they sound pretty bad to me.

[helene_t]

BunnyGo, on 2012-March-26, 00:16, said:

Director: multi-Landy isn't GCC either.

Yes but in some places (California?), the regulations are "GCC + any NT defense". So you can play your favorite NT defense (be it ML or w/e) in some places where other non-GCC stuff is banned.

[jillybean]

BunnyGo, on 2012-March-26, 01:01, said:

Edit: just double checked. See "competitive #7(b) Overcalls of NT" and note that one suit must be known if the bid is above 2♣

That is disappointing, I would have liked to have tried it. I wonder how many players if any, are playing this kind of system without the typical club player knowing that the treatment is illegal. I'm not suggesting I'm going to do it, just wondering.

[apjames]

I have played this, both as a defence to 1NT and as openings.

I don't really like it as either, especially here in NZ where everyone plays a weak NT, and you would like to have constructive auctions when they open 1NT.

I do quite like the weak multi opening though, especially when the auction goes 2♦ pass pass and third hand has no idea what is going on. The M+m two suiters seem to preempt partner lots.

[Zelandakh]

jillybean, on 2012-March-25, 21:00, said:

I've just had a game with a pickup partner who wanted to play Multi Landy over the opps 1nt; 2♣ majors, 2♦ 6crd M, 2♥/♠ 5M/4m which is fine (it may be time to change my 1nt defence again ) but he also suggested we play these as our opening weak 2's, except 2♣ remains strong, gf. What do you think?

Multi-Landy is a pretty decent defence against 1NT and is played by several world class pairs. the last time I checked it is not legal in most American tournaments (since 2♦ does not have an anchor suit). It is a big improvement on Cappeletti.

As openings this is, as others have pointed out, simply a mini-multi in combination with Muiderberg. This combination is extremely good against intermediate level opponents, somewhat less good (but not bad) against experts. My personal experience has been that overall the gains versus 3 weak twos are higher than the losses. Naturally your mileage may vary. For most American players this approach is simply not worth experimenting with though.

[Fluffy]

jillybean, on 2012-March-25, 21:00, said:

2♣ majors, 2♦ 6crd M, 2♥/♠ 5M/4m

One of my students overcalled 2♥ on 3523 last weeked because he only had 5♥.... I know you are smarter than him, but just in case, don't take definitions literarilly, 2♦ overcall could be made on 5 card major hand that wants to overcall for some reason, or on 7 card hand not worth the 3 level preempt, so it shows only 1 place to play (a major), nothing about lenght.

[gwnn]

I don't see how

Fluffy, on 2012-March-27, 08:21, said:

so it shows only 1 place to play (a major), nothing about lenght.

follows from this:

Fluffy, on 2012-March-27, 08:21, said:

2♦ overcall could be made on 5 card major hand that wants to overcall for some reason, or on 7 card hand not worth the 3 level preempt,

Most of the time you will have 6 cards, sometimes 5, sometimes 7. Surely this means that "usually/most often/almost surely 6" is a better description than "says nothing about length".

[jillybean]

---

Playing multi-landy where 2♦=single suit 6 card M and 3♣/3♦= 6 card minor,
is this an auotmatic 3♦, marginal or a pass?

[mgoetze]

jillybean, on 2012-March-28, 16:16, said:

---

Playing multi-landy where 2♦=single suit 6 card M and 3♣/3♦= 6 card minor,
is this an auotmatic 3♦, marginal or a pass?

Auto at MP, marginal at IMPs.

[the hog]

jillybean, on 2012-March-28, 16:16, said:

---

Playing multi-landy where 2♦=single suit 6 card M and 3♣/3♦= 6 card minor,
is this an auotmatic 3♦, marginal or a pass?

Pass at both of course. Look at the rubbish you have outside.

[mycroft]

Jillybean: this is a legal Mid-Chart convention with no defence required and no minimum boards-per-round. You do have to PreAlert it, however. You can play it any time you can play the Mid-Chart (for you, probably any "separate Flight A" (so StratiFlighted games) and "high enough" brackets of KOs (which you probably would not get into).

I expect this to change in a few years as we continue to rethink COMPETITIVE, 7b. I've never understood why they changed this one in the first place, frankly.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Anybody willing to play Multi 2♦(or two-suited 2-openings) should read
the following article by Pietro Campanile. It gives something to think about.
This guy has done statistical analysis of Bermuda Bowl, European Championships
and Olympics and laid down the question: does Multi really work against weak two's?

It's obvious to anyone who ever played multi that it's inferior to weak twos.
The point is to free 2M openings for other uses though. I think 2M as 5-5 this major and a minor are very good openings although a bit rare.
2H as hearts and other is imo worse, you lose spades too often in hands which belongs to you.

Quote

I don't know what your defences include but they sound pretty bad to me.

This is defense is standard in Poland against both multi and Wilkosz for beginners, experts and pros:
-pass = either normal or t/o to hearts
-double = t/o to spades
-other = natural

This is simple, effective and imo better than all fancy stuff people come up with. It also survived the test of time in a country where almost everybody play either multi or Wilkosz (and Wilkosz is still non-alertable use for 2D as it's considered standard, especially by older generation of players).

Quote

Analysis is interesting but why does the minimulti do well and the multi does not?

Besides merits of both conventions mini-multi tends to be played by better players than multivariant multi.
Meckwell played mini-multi, Balicki-Zmudzinski and other Polish pairs play mini-multi and they probably make up for imps donated by weakier pairs playing multi variant multi.

As an offtopic I will add that this is pathetic that ACBL forbids multi and that very good players sometimes speak in defense of that policy because supposedly multi is hard to defense. As mentioned before most middle aged and older people here play Wilkosz, people defend it against all the time and nobody complains. Same goes for multi, it's not hard to defend against, it's easy. You are be better off if opponents play multi than you would be if they played weak-twos on those hands applying very simple natural defense and just using your brain.
It's just matter of being used to thinking and accepting that some openings introduce some variance to results.

[mgoetze]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-29, 12:34, said:

This is defense is standard in Poland against both multi and Wilkosz for beginners, experts and pros:
-pass = either normal or t/o to hearts
-double = t/o to spades
-other = natural

This is simple, effective and imo better than all fancy stuff people come up with.

Well, I am not talking about fancy stuff, I just prefer to bid 2♥ immediately with t/o of hearts.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Well, I am not talking about fancy stuff, I just prefer to bid 2♥ immediately with t/o of hearts.

So you are losing natural 2H overcall I suppose ?
This is one of the biggest flaw of multi, it gives you a chance to overcall 2H on hands where other people would open 2S taking that option away. Imo giving up natural way to exploit it is not the way to go.
Also pass with t/o to hearts has some advantages, you often get them if it goes:

2D - pass - 2H pass
2S - dbl = penalty

[mgoetze]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-29, 12:48, said:

Also pass with t/o to hearts has some advantages, you often get them if it goes:

2D - pass - 2H pass
2S - dbl = penalty

Sure, you just have to weigh this against the disadvantages when it goes

2D - pass - 3S - pass
4H

or whatever. I am of course open to being persuaded by statistical arguments here - but maybe you should dig up one of the old threads on how to best defend the multi if you have those.

[jillybean]

mycroft, on 2012-March-29, 10:48, said:

Jillybean: this is a legal Mid-Chart convention with no defence required and no minimum boards-per-round. You do have to PreAlert it, however. You can play it any time you can play the Mid-Chart (for you, probably any "separate Flight A" (so StratiFlighted games) and "high enough" brackets of KOs (which you probably would not get into).

I expect this to change in a few years as we continue to rethink COMPETITIVE, 7b. I've never understood why they changed this one in the first place, frankly.

Thanks, good to know where it is legal and that it might change in the future. I have 200 monster points. Other than when I am playing with a flight A partner or I can convince other partners to play in A/X games, I won't legally be playing much of this. otoh, is it legal in A/X?

[mycroft]

It's legal wherever Mid-Chart is legal. In your district, *I'm pretty sure*, Midchart is legal in any separate flight A game and in the top KO bracket. But check with your TDs at the tournament - Matt, if he's there, but any of them should be able to tell you.