[the hog]

S2000magic, on 2012-March-25, 19:12, said:

You could end up playing in a 4-3 diamond fit instead of a 6-3 heart fit, or a 4-4 diamond fit instead of a 6-3 heart fit.

No I could not. I agree with 3D.

[S2000magic]

the hog, on 2012-March-25, 23:19, said:

S2000magic, on 2012-March-25, 19:12, said:

mike777, on 2012-March-25, 19:04, said:

3d good invite I hope not a courtesy raise.

You could end up playing in a 4-3 diamond fit instead of a 6-3 heart fit, or a 4-4 diamond fit instead of a 6-3 heart fit.

No I could not. I agree with 3D.

I'm interested in how you would avoid this problem; please explain.

[P_Marlowe]

S2000magic, on 2012-March-25, 19:40, said:

What do you rebid on 5=3=3=2?

2C.

We would bid 2D with 5332, but the agreement that 2D showes a 4 carder
is not the worst.
Of course bidding 2C on only 2 cards, makes the 2C response nearly forcing,
and if you go this route further, than you end up with something like
Gazilliy or whatever the name ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: With the hand in the original post I would bid 2H, as long as it showes
a 6 carder, which is not the case for every one.

[the_clown]

I would 100% bid 2♥ when playing MP. Playing 2♥ would work out better than 3♦ most of the time + if p has a singleton ♥ he could run in 2♠, which I will correct to 3♦. Of course we may miss a game in ♦ or NT, but if p has a really good hand, he will find another positive bid.

[the hog]

S2000magic, on 2012-March-26, 06:34, said:

I'm interested in how you would avoid this problem; please explain.

Quite simple. For me a 2D bid guarantees 4+D. I will bid 2C on a 5332. This is not an uncommon agreement.

[bluecalm]

2d should be 4 if we play something reasonable () but I still bid 2h, if I have game it's probably in hearts and heart partial might well be the best too.
I am not very convinced by my intuition here though, would need some research to be sure. 3D is my 2nd choice and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the best call after all.

[S2000magic]

the hog, on 2012-March-26, 17:54, said:

Quite simple. For me a 2D bid guarantees 4+D. I will bid 2C on a 5332. This is not an uncommon agreement.

How do you untangle whether or not you have a club fit after a rebid of 2♣? Four-two is awful (a lot worse than even 4-3), but 4-4 or 4-5 is great; does opener have to rebid a 4- or 5-card club suit?

[mike777]

BARt helps

in any case pard bid 2d not 2c

[P_Marlowe]

S2000magic, on 2012-March-26, 21:35, said:

How do you untangle whether or not you have a club fit after a rebid of 2♣? Four-two is awful (a lot worse than even 4-3), but 4-4 or 4-5 is great; does opener have to rebid a 4- or 5-card club suit?

As already stated, if 2C can be bid on a 2 card suit, the bid becomes 95% forcing.
Usually you should go back to openers first suit, if the difference in your holding
is <= 1, and if 2C can be a 2 carder, than you should go back if the difference is
<= 2, this may lead to some 5-1 fits instead of a possible 4-3 fit, but so what.


The alternative solution is to open 1NT with 5332.

Take your pick.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[HighLow21]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-March-27, 04:56, said:

...if 2C can be bid on a 2 card suit...

Please revisit the name of this forum.

[phil_20686]

I am really amazed by the quantity of discussion on this thread. It just seems super obvious to me to bid 2H:

(1) I'd like to mention my heart suit at some stage, it looks by far the most likely game.
(2) If partner has some 5341 15-17 count I am much more likely to get to game if I show my heart suit. 2H is not guaranteed to end the auction.
(3) If Partner retreats to spades over hearts it is 100% he is unbalanced, as he would pass with any two hearts unless he has 6 good spades. Thus if he pulls 2H I can now retreat to diamonds safe in the knowledge that partner has 4 of them, and partner will have a good picture of my hand.

The danger: partner might pass with some 5152/5143 hand. Even if that happens its not guaranteed bidding diamonds would have turned out better as we might get too high, or he might be strong enough to bid again (15-17), or 2H might play ok anyway.

[gnasher]

Yes it does look rather obvious to bid 2♥, whatever exact strength it shows. You can hardly jump to 3♥ with this, and raising diamonds won't get you to the right game very often.

[S2000magic]

gnasher, on 2012-March-27, 17:36, said:

You can hardly jump to 3♥ with this . . . .

What would a jump to 3♥ show?

[the hog]

HighLow21, on 2012-March-27, 11:39, said:

Please revisit the name of this forum.

1NT 2C Stayman on xxxx xxxx xxx xx

Please revisit the name of the forum?

[HighLow21]

the hog, on 2012-March-27, 18:09, said:

1NT 2C Stayman on xxxx xxxx xxx xx

Please revisit the name of the forum?

You play that in the auction 1S-1NT-2C, the 2C is Stayman? Doesn't sound like a natural bidding discussion to me.

[johnu]

HighLow21, on 2012-March-27, 11:39, said:

Please revisit the name of this forum.

Did you already forget this is assumed to be a forcing (or maybe semi-forcing) NT in a 2/1 system? 2 card rebids (or 1♣openers) are not unexpected in this "natural" system.

[P_Marlowe]

HighLow21, on 2012-March-27, 11:39, said:

Please revisit the name of this forum.

It may come as a surprise to you, but the real world is neither black or
white, it happens that there exists a color called grey.
Hopefully you wont sugest to open a forum for each existing shade of grey.
Or to but it more in context to the forum name - there is no clear cut border
between natural bidding and whatever you want to call the other style.

And if you followed the thread carefully, the given remark was intended
as a clarification of a side question that got raised during the discussion.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

The OP assumes a forcing notrump and an artifical 2D rebid (3+) in the natural bidding forum, then points an accusing finger at those who assume that 2D shows 4. That doesn't make sense. Perhaps the OP thinks that you have to play forcing notrump when you play 2/1 (not true) or that you have to rebid 2D with a 5332 shape after a forcing notrump (also not true).

Gnasher and others mention that 2H is the best road to the most likely game, I agree. But somewhere in the middle of the thread the OP has specified that the form of scoring is matchpoints. That makes getting to the best game much less of a consideration, in a majority of the hands we will not have a game. This hand really is not that good.

In the style forced upon us by the OP I think that 2H is indeed obvious. In the style where 1NT is not forcing and 2D shows 4 (which is a style that I prefer) there is more to be said for 3D or even pass. Especially with both opponents silent partner is far more likely to have a 5-1-4-3 shape than an 5-3-4-1 shape, and if partner is 5-5 then diamonds is almost certainly better than hearts.

I'd still bid 2H.

[the hog]

HighLow21, on 2012-March-27, 23:51, said:

You play that in the auction 1S-1NT-2C, the 2C is Stayman? Doesn't sound like a natural bidding discussion to me.

Huh, read the post again!

[HighLow21]

the hog, on 2012-March-28, 02:07, said:

Huh, read the post again!

Yeah, I'm clearly missing something. The opening bid is 1S, not 1NT.