[Flem72]

OK--not playing any ForcingClub or similar stuff, and not putting them into 2D, but forced to open them 1X or 2C or 2N with a stiff honor (blech)--

anyone have a structure?

This one befuddled me the other day:

x
AKQx
AKQx
AKxx

and I'm tired of being befuddled.

I'll say it so no one will have to: What a great argument for a forcing club system!!!

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[aguahombre]

Someone might explain Kokish after 2C opening. I don't know it, but I think it can cover this.

[mikeh]

aguahombre, on 2012-March-21, 17:55, said:

Someone might explain Kokish after 2C opening. I don't know it, but I think it can cover this.

Not in any version of Kokish I have seen: doesn't mean one doesn't exist, of course....and if there is one, I'd like to see it.

[awm]

Usually I open 1m on these, and I'd do it with one less honor, but 25 high is just too much. I'd open 2c and then fake a five-card suit in whatever is cheapest (usually hearts). I think treating these as balanced is generally bad (might think otherwise with a stiff honor though).

It's worth noting that a lot of strong club methods have trouble on these too. Fortunately they are rare.

[Zelandakh]

Last time I suggest the possibility of opening 2♣ and rebidding a 4 card suit on a strong 4441 hand it got a scathing response from Mike. I am guessing it will have more weight coming from Adam. What he says is simply what you do with these hands. Ideally you bid a suit which can stand a 3 card raise; here hearts is no problem but if the hearts are weak and the minors strong it can be better to treat a minor as the 5 card suit instead. Just try and picture how the auction might unfold.

I do disagree with Adam about strong club systems having a problem on these hands. Most of the time you open 1♣ and the bidding comes back to you in ~3 of the short suit; then you double. Even if that does not happen I think most manage to fit in some dedicated rebid to cover the hand type. For me a 1♠ rebid includes strong 3-suiters.

Within a more standard system there is no structure for this that I am aware of other than using the 2♦ opening in some way. If you are willing to do this then there are several possible schemes that can handle this. Otherwise just open 1m on non-gameforcing hands and keep forcing if the bidding comes back or open 2♣ as above on the (very rare) super-strong ones that cannot stand being treated as balanced.

[mycroft]

The problem on a strong club is when they *don't* interfere. Unless you give up a bid to show Marmic hands, or you throw them in as a second option in a bid (and then have to differentiate it), you're doing the same "faking" that the 2♣ bidders are.

[dake50]

Look up Cavendish (of the 2-bids library). I think he did
a ParadoX (his word) scheme to 2C to handle 4441's.

[Zelandakh]

dake50, on 2012-March-22, 16:16, said:

Look up Cavendish (of the 2-bids library). I think he did
a ParadoX (his word) scheme to 2C to handle 4441's.

I suspect you are thinking of Chris Ryall. Here is a link to his 2♣ method with a further link to his 3-suited structure. This is one of the potential solutions to which I alluded earlier.

[ahydra]

Open 2C, rebid 3NT?

ahydra

[gszes]

With shortness in the majors the 2c system (2d waiting) works quite well

2c 2d 3(h/s) shows 4441 short in suit bid p can bid your short suit to
ask for power or 4n to ask for aces or try to place contract.

The same system can also use 4c/4d for the same purpose but runs across
the problematic bypassing of 3n for speculative reasons.

I have also played multi with a strong roman component added just for
these types of hands.

2d
2(h/s)
3(c/d/h/s) all show roman style hands of 22+

2d
2n
4(c/d/h/s) all show roman style hands of 22+

[Furlan]

What we play around here is 2♣ - 2♦ - 3NT/4♣/4♦/4♥ shows 4441 shape, bidding below the singleton (i.e. 3NT=singleton ♣ and so on). Responder bidding opener's singleton then asks for controls (1st step shows 6), anything else is to play.

[the hog]

ahydra, on 2012-March-23, 06:25, said:

Open 2C, rebid 3NT?

ahydra

Plus one.
Or go via Kokish
2C 2D
2H 2S
2N

and lie about 1 point and about it being a balanced hand.

[aguahombre]

Furlan, on 2012-March-25, 19:43, said:

What we play around here is 2♣ - 2♦ - 3NT/4♣/4♦/4♥ shows 4441 shape, bidding below the singleton (i.e. 3NT=singleton ♣ and so on). Responder bidding opener's singleton then asks for controls (1st step shows 6), anything else is to play.

With that start, it might be better for responder to go through the singleton for signoff after the suit-below rebid; the advantage would be when direct establishment of trump (forcing) brings key cards in the trump suit into play.