[Hanoi5]

---

Should North overvalue his hand and bid KC over 2♠?

Imp pairs.

[ArtK78]

No. But he might bid 3♠ rather than 4♠, assuming that 3♠ is game forcing (and stronger than 4♠).

Still hard to get to 6♠, which is a good contract. While I would want to be in 6♠, it is by no means a claim. It will claim on 2-2 spades and will usually make if you find the ♠Q.

It is always difficult to properly evaluate hands when one partner bids a long, weak suit and the other partner is short in that suit.

[Antrax]

Would 3♠ by N have been non-forcing?

[BunnyGo]

Antrax, on 2012-March-18, 09:53, said:

Would 3♠ by N have been non-forcing?

If they are playing 2/1 GF then it's forcing. Playing ACOL (from what I understand) it isn't.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

No ... to RKC . North doesn't know about 2 quick ♦ losers.
This 25 hcp combined.... only makes 12 tricks because it is a "magic" fit.

[aguahombre]

If 2/1 was G.F. to begin with, then you have the choice between 3S and 4S. 3S is not necessarily "stronger" than 4...just different. 4S would be picture, no rounded controls, everything in diamonds and spades.

So, with that in place, opener can choose to show a merely decent hand (which he has) that would cooperate for slam; or he could choose to show significant extras (which he hasn't).

This is done thru serious/non-serious agreements, if we have them in our bag. We would peter out on this one before the six-level, missing two significant cards and not a ten-card fit.

1S-2D
2S-3S
4C!-4H (4C or 3NT, your choice of "serious" style, we hold non-serious values)
4N-5H (North should pretend to have the spade queen with a fourth trump).

[ggwhiz]

I don't mind your auction at all.

The only chance I can see is if South rebid 2♥ instead of 2♠, got a jump to 3♠ over that and then cuebid 4♣. I don't think I'm getting to slam even after this start.

North can surmise the short diamonds but key card will show you off 1 plus the trump Queen and he won't know about the 6th spade.

[nigel_k]

You don't want to be in slam.

South should rebid 2♥. I'm skeptical about the style of rebidding a six card suit just because you are minimum, but suppressing a four card major to do it is clearly wrong IMO.

If South had a hand where you actually do want to be in slam, e.g. spades were AQxxxx instead of AJxxxx, I don't see why you can't get there after 1♠-2♦-2♥-3♠, cue bidding and RKCB.

If South had something like AQxxxx Qxx x Axx then it is a much harder problem. This is why people play 2/1.

EDITED: Added an extra small spade in the last example.

[HighLow21]

nigel_k, on 2012-March-18, 13:14, said:

You don't want to be in slam.

Agreed. Slam is fair at best. It requires finding the Q♠, avoiding a ruff, and ruffing a heart.

nigel_k, on 2012-March-18, 13:14, said:

South should rebid 2♥. I'm skeptical about the style of rebidding a six card suit just because you are minimum, but suppressing a four card major to do it is clearly wrong IMO.

Disagreed. 2♥ to me suggests a better hand, a better suit, or both in my book. If you are playing 2/1, you're better off defining 1M-2m-2M as one example of a 2/1 auction that does not force game. That makes 2♥ rebid a game force, which you don't want to do with this hand if you have no fit.

nigel_k, on 2012-March-18, 13:14, said:

If South had something like AQxxx Qxx x Axx then it is a much harder problem. This is why people play 2/1.

Funny. To me this hand is an example of the reason I DON'T play 2/1. (you're missing an x somewhere, btw --> I assume it should be in ♦.)

[MrAce]

Guys...cmon...Opener MUST bid 2♥

No need to mastermind this.

In 2/1

1M-2m
2M is NOT a limit bid, so i dont understand why would someone bid 2♥ with better hands and 2♠ with worse hands.

[Flem72]

aguahombre, on 2012-March-18, 11:49, said:

If 2/1 was G.F. to begin with, then you have the choice between 3S and 4S. 3S is not necessarily "stronger" than 4...just different. 4S would be picture, no rounded controls, everything in diamonds and spades.

What he said.

[aguahombre]

MrAce, on 2012-March-18, 14:29, said:

Guys...cmon...Opener MUST bid 2♥

Actually no. If 2/1 is G.F, there is no particular reason for opener to rebid a 4-card suit rather than a 6-card suit except if he is preparing to show extra strength above an opening bid.

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2012-March-18, 16:28, said:

Actually no. If 2/1 is G.F, there is no particular reason for opener to rebid a 4-card suit rather than a 6-card suit except if he is preparing to show extra strength above an opening bid.

Well u are plain wrong.

I mean i understand u see both hands and see 6-3 ♠ fit and wanna pull the trigga, but it doesnt work like that, sorry

2♠ doesnt even promise 6 card ♠, doesnt show extras or show weakness either. Instead of finding your fit at 3 level, now responder has to bid it and u have to support at 4 level. For most people, since 2♠ denies 4♥, responder's 3♥ can be artificial ( trying to right side 3 NT for example) In fact starting with 2♥ is more economical bid than showing it later or waiting pd to show it. Big majority of experts play 1♥-2m-2♠ w/o extras letalone this one.

Disregard what i wrote if what you wrote was some sort of joke or sarcasm that i didnt get.

[mike777]

strongly prefer to rebid 2h not 2s and no it does not show extras.

any event end up in 4 or 5s never 6.

[aguahombre]

MrAce, on 2012-March-18, 16:32, said:

Well u are plain wrong then.

2♠ doesnt even promise 6 card ♠, doesnt show extras or show weakness either. Instead of finding your fit at 3 level, now responder has to bid it and u have to support at 4 level.

Disregard what i wrote if what you wrote was some sort of joke or sarcasm that i didnt get.

No, it wasn't a joke. We just disagree on who is wrong, and I don't feel like outshouting you.

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2012-March-18, 16:41, said:

No, it wasn't a joke. We just disagree on who is wrong, and I don't feel like outshouting you.

To prevent hijack, if it was someone else i wldnt care really, now u made me curious

http://www.bridgebas...de4-h-min-hand/

[Phil]

aguahombre, on 2012-March-18, 16:28, said:

Actually no. If 2/1 is G.F, there is no particular reason for opener to rebid a 4-card suit rather than a 6-card suit except if he is preparing to show extra strength above an opening bid.

This isn't correct and I'm surprised you say this.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

MrAce, on 2012-March-18, 14:29, said:

Guys...cmon...Opener MUST bid 2♥

No need to mastermind this.

In 2/1

1M-2m
2M is NOT a limit bid, so i dont understand why would someone bid 2♥ with better hands and 2♠ with worse hands.

You've seen this before.
Bidding 6 6 4 is weaker than 6 4 6 ... hence, the preliminary implication is that rebidding 2H may be showing a "better limited" hand .
( Of course it doesn't become clear until the 3rd Rnd of bidding ) .

At first, when I only looked at the hcp, it appeared that 2S was the correct bid, but all of the 11 hcp are "working" and there are at least 3 distributional points. Also, if there is a fit, this hand is only a 6 LTC .
Sooo, 2H seems to be a better rebid.
However, that still doesn't mean 6S would/should be reached .

[Flem72]

Phil, on 2012-March-18, 17:34, said:

This isn't correct and I'm surprised you say this.

There's a split. Some, like the waterman, want to prepare for the 3M rebid with a weak 6-4, so that bidding a lower 4-carder, then rebidding the 6-carder shows extras. Some make an exception for S then H, so that 1S-2m/2H-3om/3S is ambiguous as to strength, while 1S-2C/2D-2N/3S would be extras. Similarly 1S-1FNT/2C-2X/2S as opposed to 1S-1FNT/2S-2N/3C. I like the limiting value of the 2M rebid, and putting the onus on R to bid the 4-carder if s/he holds it, but if you have the Serious/Frivolous and cuebidding tools available to limit the hands, and especially then, pattern bidding in the 1S-open-2H-rebid situation seems just as efficient -- and more so when R can support S at the 2 level. But 95% of 2/1 pairs, at least around here, don't have those tools, so it is important to limit the hand asap to eliminate the issue, at least partially.

And slam is roughly 52% playing the drop line, right? You pays yer money and you makes your choice.

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[aguahombre]

Phil, on 2012-March-18, 17:34, said:

This isn't correct and I'm surprised you say this.

When something is part of a pair's style and preference, that doesn't mean it is correct or incorrect. If I gave the impression that rebidding a six card spade suit in preference to a 4-card heart suit was incorrect, my wording was sloppy. I thought I expressed that there is no particular reason to do so(as a general rule); and that if we did so and later showed the sixth spade, we would have a stronger hand. There might also be hands where the six card spade suit is so bad, and the 4 hearts are so good that we don't really intend to ever show the sixth spade.